bmw e30 318i donor

[big-handy-andy]

hi all just bought the book read it twice (missus is already dreading the amount of money its going to cost!) just wondering if anyone has used an e30 as a donor and have they any plans/drawings for the e30 diff mounts and rear hubs? any help greatly appreciated! cheers, Andy.

[HandyAndy]

Hi & welcome to the forum oh big namesake of mine :D
sorry i don,t have the answers to your questions tho i,m sure someone will come along with some info.
cheers
andy ( handyandy) ;) :D

[flyerncle]

Welcome to the nuthatch, It has been posted here before about using BMW running gear ie diff etc and I think the opinion was that using the rear suspension was out and fitting the diff etc was a pain too. The engine and box could be used to good effect and again this is on the forum with pics of a build but I cant remember who but someone will, I have a damaged 318 IS compact in the garage and am considering it for engine and box.

Good luck

[Bonzo]

Hi welome to the forum Big Andy. :)

I believe our mighty leader, Chris has made a few posts about the beemer running gear. ;)

I am sure Chris will be along shortly, in the meantime have a good poke around the forum. :) :)

[Chris Gibbs]

I've looked at the BMW E36 bits, the E30 bits are broadly similar.

The rear suspension will require a bearing housing to be made to take the BMW bearings and to fix to an upright similar to the Sierra one, as the BMW set up is unusable.

The diff is quite big but can be squeezed in, and the same applies to the engine and gearbox, using mods similar to the MT75 ones.

The front hub isn't tall enough to be used alone and requires a fabrication like this

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p112/chrisg222/bmwfrontupright5.jpg

which is bolted to the existing strut mountings.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Chris :)

[big-handy-andy]

cheers Chris, might see if i can source sierra rear hubs and drive shafts splice them with the bmw shafts and use the rest of the bmw running gear now to start sourcing some tube.....
Andy.

[Longerr]

Hi Andy, we used as a donor 318ti, u can see the pictures here http://picasaweb.google.com/Longerr82/Project7 if any questions jsut ask, I"ll translate it to my father who has done the build :)

[Chris_]

Andy, if you can. I would try and use the BMW rear end.
It's easy to get hubs with discs, or abs etc and as the rear carriers are fabricated it should be possible to fit them.

It seems like it would be easiest to use sierra front uprights though. i'm not sure i'd fancy the adapter doodahs bolted to the back of the BM hubs. Mind you they would look nice machined out of billet Alloy.

Cheers
Chris

[Danny]

Theres quite a few people worldwide who are interested in using BMW parts some specific drawings and measurements (perhaps as an ANNEX to the book) and stickied on the forum might be good. :cool:


.......please :)

[rmccomiskie]

It seems like it would be easiest to use sierra front uprights though. i'm not sure i'd fancy the adapter doodahs bolted to the back of the BM hubs. Mind you they would look nice machined out of billet Alloy.

Looking at the E36 front uprights, BMW didn't mind bolting a 'doodah' to it. The strut is attached to the back of the upright with 3 bolts. That strut has a lot more leverage than the top wishbone would have. It seems to me that a properly designed 'doodah', one that provides the desired geometry, would be quite strong and perfectly safe.

Bob.

[rmccomiskie]

Theres quite a few people worldwide who are interested in using BMW parts some specific drawings and measurements (perhaps as an ANNEX to the book) and stickied on the forum might be good. :cool:


.......please :)

Here in the U.S., there's plenty of 3 Series BMWs in the wrecking yards. It's one of the few RWD cars left. I'm leaning toward the 1992-95 318i (E36 w/M42 engine) for the engine, trans, diff, front uprights, F/R brakes, maybe steering column. The rear hub carriers don't look usable so those may need to be fabricated. The diff mounting looks similar to the Mazda Miata IRS so that's been done before on Locost chassis.

Longerr has already proved that the engine & trans can be used: http://picasaweb.google.com/Longerr82/Project7#

I agree that we need to gather some measurements to see what alterations are needed.

Bob.

[Danny]

My main motivation for this is because here in NZ (I am unsure what it is like everywhere else in the world) the popularity of drifting has made any RWD Performance japanese car parts hideously expensive, forget getting a sierra over here so that pretty much leave BMW as they are one of the few makers whose majority of cars (even the lower spec'd and therefore cheaper ones) are RWD.

Another question (though it may be stupid) would the BMW 6 Cylinders fit into a 7?

[Chris Gibbs]

The fabricated front upright bolts to the same mountings as the original strut, which has a much longer moment arm. There shouldn't be any strength problems.

Designing the upright presents an almost unique opportunity to specify the ideal geometry for the application (well unique to us mortals - Ford always do it :D )

The designer can specify caster, camber, king pin inclination and scrub radius, not something that you can do with a "donor" upright. Usually you need to start by working around the chosen upright's limitations!

I'd like to do the designing myself now but I'm just too busy at the moment, soon though :)

Cheers

Chris :)

[rmccomiskie]

...Designing the upright presents an almost unique opportunity to specify the ideal geometry for the application (well unique to us mortals - Ford always do it :D )

The designer can specify caster, camber, king pin inclination and scrub radius, not something that you can do with a "donor" upright. Usually you need to start by working around the chosen upright's limitations!

I'd like to do the designing myself now but I'm just too busy at the moment, soon though :)

Thanks for volunteering Chris. Of the 2 drawings you previously posted, one (http://www.haynes.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=3880&postcount=2) shows the fabricated part straddling the upper mounting ear and the other (http://www.haynes.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=13339&postcount=5) shows it bolted to the side of the ear. Even though it might mean the fabricated upper ball joint attachment has to be angled somewhat for proper geometry, it seems to me that the straddled approach would be less likely to flex the mounting bolt.

In your design, perhaps you can consider instructions that accomodate different KPI, caster, scrub radius, wheel offset, tire size. Something like a simple geometric drawing that shows where the upper ball joint has to be given all the parameters. Just my 2 cents.

Waits eagerly...

[rmccomiskie]

I've found a few pics of BMW E30 and E36 differentials for comparison. I believe both chassis were fitted with small (318) and large (325) diffs.

E36 front mount is a single bolt on the lower right side inserted horizontally front to back.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6601/diff318e36m42np445case1.jpg

E36 rear mount is a two eared affair integrated into the rear cover. This is a small case judging by the single top bolt in the rear cover. Large cases have 2 bolts.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6601/diff318e36m42np445case1.jpg

E30 front mount is four bolts inserted vertically.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6396/diff318e30npsmallcase32.jpg

E30 rear mount is a single ear on the left side integral with the rear cover. This pic is the small case. Note the single top bolt in the rear cover.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6150/diff318e30npsmallcase31.jpg

[Danny]

So that adaptor for the front hub is only to extend the height to the upper A arm? Are there other uprights that can be used as like i mentioned before sierra's are pretty hard to find over here.

Another awesome thing to see would be this

http://www.billzilla.org/frasersusp.jpg

An inboard upright setup, this is the one used by fraser cars in NZ so I am not sure if there are patent issues or anything.

[Danny]

Longerr has already proved that the engine & trans can be used: http://picasaweb.google.com/Longerr82/Project7#

Bob.

On that one it looks like they have got around the problem by mounting the upper A arm lower down the Chassis. (or is this where it is supposed to be?)

[Chris Gibbs]

Thanks for volunteering Chris. Of the 2 drawings you previously posted, one (http://www.haynes.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=3880&postcount=2) shows the fabricated part straddling the upper mounting ear and the other (http://www.haynes.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=13339&postcount=5) shows it bolted to the side of the ear. Even though it might mean the fabricated upper ball joint attachment has to be angled somewhat for proper geometry, it seems to me that the straddled approach would be less likely to flex the mounting bolt.

In your design, perhaps you can consider instructions that accomodate different KPI, caster, scrub radius, wheel offset, tire size. Something like a simple geometric drawing that shows where the upper ball joint has to be given all the parameters. Just my 2 cents.

Waits eagerly...

The two versions of the fabrication exist because I haven't done any work on the geometry.

I'd better explain that, One of the set ups will be better for caster, but I don't know which. Obviously the version with the upright stradling the strut mount would be prefered (double shear) but it might be that the geometry requires the offset version, for example if the balljoint articulation is beyond limits.

As I said in my previous post it's an oportunity to decide your own parameters, suspension design is facinating but always a compromise with opposing factors and I think it would be beyond the scope of a build your own type book to do justice to the subject. I'd recommend "competition Car Suspension" by Allan Staniforth (RIP) if you want to get into it.

The design would be my best compromise taking into account weight, wheel rates, required roll centres, etc with adjustability built in for people to tinker.

Camber adjustment is easy to accomodate if the design uses the Transit drag link end, caster can be adjusted by spacing the bottom and top wishbones (not a lot I'll grant you) KPI is really a function of design, and needs to be set when the upright is made, although camber changes will alter the angle slightly, and scub radius can only be altered, when KPI has been set, by varing wheel offset.

It's worth noting that lowering the top wishbones will extend the roll centres almost to infinity, efectively making the set up into a swing axle - think VW Beetle - it'll keep the chassis off the floor but it was abandoned for performance cars in the 1930's!

Cheers

Chris :)

[Danny]

please keep working on it, im looking foward to what you come up with.

[Chris_]

Looking at the E36 front uprights, BMW didn't mind bolting a 'doodah' to it. The strut is attached to the back of the upright with 3 bolts. That strut has a lot more leverage than the top wishbone would have. It seems to me that a properly designed 'doodah', one that provides the desired geometry, would be quite strong and perfectly safe.

Bob.

I wasn't saying ot for the strength side of things, more, as you say, the geometry side of things. :)

Not sure i'd fancy knocking one up with a bit of plate and a MIG, and certainly not two identicals :D

Chris

PS, E30 & E36 diffs are either small or medium case. The large case goes on the bigger models (5, 6, 7 series) oh and the rear cover is interchangable between e30 - e30 smalls and e30 - e36 mediums. (ie. not small to medium or vice versa) :)

[rmccomiskie]

I wasn't saying ot for the strength side of things, more, as you say, the geometry side of things. :)

Not sure i'd fancy knocking one up with a bit of plate and a MIG, and certainly not two identicals :D

Chris

PS, E30 & E36 diffs are either small or medium case. The large case goes on the bigger models (5, 6, 7 series) oh and the rear cover is interchangable between e30 - e30 smalls and e30 - e36 mediums. (ie. not small to medium or vice versa) :)

I agree. Making two mirror image adapter brackets would require some very precise measuring and workmanship. Some kind of jig would be needed to hold the critical parts in alignment. An advantage of this approach is that you could change the geometry at a later time by fabricating another set of brackets. With enough adjustment built into the wishbones, it would be relatively simple to swap street geometry to track geometry.

Let's see if I understand you correctly. The E30 and E36 small diff rear covers are interchangable and the E30 & E36 medium covers are interchangable. And the small cover won't fit the large case. Right?

What do you know about the Z3 diffs? It looks like they have yet another version of the rear cover. I think it's the same diff. Is the cover also interchangable?

Bob.

[Chris_]

Thats right as far as i am aware.

The Z3 uses a nearly identical rear end to the E30. Except with 5 stud hubs, bigger brakes, some new diff ratios and the option of a very tasty 'torsen' diff.

The diff is indeed the same except with that nice finned rear cover. This cover should fit any other similar aged medium cased diff. E30 E36 E34 (small engine 5 series) etc.

Any more questions?? :D

Chris

Mind you, i am just about to go and double check about all this.

[graeme.webb1@ntlworld.com]

On my car I have trial fitted an E36 diff and have moddified the chassis mounting points to suit. The E36 rear hubs have been modified ( a lot of work) and the upright design modified to suit. The hub mods require a lot of material removal with angle grinders than time in a lathe so the final design looksa bit like a standard Ford item.
I have a new e mail address graemewebb@ymail.com contact me for more info.

[Bonzo]

Sounds cool :)

Why not post a few pictures to wet our apetites ;) :D :D

[graeme.webb1@ntlworld.com]

Sounds cool :)

Why not post a few pictures to wet our apetites ;) :D :D

I've tried but I'm a bit thick and cant figure out

[Bonzo]

Tis quite easy once you get the hang of it.

This is how I manage

Use a photo sharing site such as Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/) or Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/) or the likes

Plenty out there & free to use

Upload your images to your chosen host.

I use Photobucket, it will allow you to resize the image when you upload.

Once the image has been uploaded, look for images code ( Web address ) .
Should look something like this: http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/Bonzoronnie/100_0269.jpg .......Will have [img] either end though.

Right click on the image code & choose copy

On your forum post, click on the insert image button on the tool bar at the top.
You may be prompted to allow scripted windows ( I do )
Click on the prompt & choose to allow scripted windows.

Click on the insert image button once more & right click on the text box that pops up & paste the image code in the box. Then click ok.

This should bring up a photo within your post.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that you can post images that are on your computer.....Don't know how to do that though :o

Probaly easier ways to post photos but it works for me :D

[graeme.webb1@ntlworld.com]

Tis quite easy once you get the hang of it.

This is how I manage

Use a photo sharing site such as Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/) or Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/) or the likes

Plenty out there & free to use

Upload your images to your chosen host.

I use Photobucket, it will allow you to resize the image when you upload.

Once the image has been uploaded, look for images code ( Web address ) .
Should look something like this: http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/Bonzoronnie/100_0269.jpg .......Will have [img] either end though.

Right click on the image code & choose copy

On your forum post, click on the insert image button on the tool bar at the top.
You may be prompted to allow scripted windows ( I do )
Click on the prompt & choose to allow scripted windows.

Click on the insert image button once more & right click on the text box that pops up & paste the image code in the box. Then click ok.

This should bring up a photo within your post.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that you can post images that are on your computer.....Don't know how to do that though :o

Probaly easier ways to post photos but it works for me :D

Modified E36 rear hubs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thimp1/4143784237/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/thimp1/4143796567/

[gingea1pom]

It might just be me but I can't see anything apart from little red squares!:confused:

[graeme.webb1@ntlworld.com]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thimp1/4143784237/

[Tatey]

Try this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2618/4143784237_f81be985b9.jpg

[Bonzo]

Almost there Graeme ;)

Did manage to browse your handywork on Flickr though.

Not being a flickr user....I don't know where to find the image codes for each image :confused: :confused:

Perhaps Tatey will enlighten us :D

[alga]

Bonzo, click on "All sizes" above the image (if available), then choose the appropriate size and copy the link from that page.

[aerosam]

This may be slightly off subject, but I'm using all of the running gear from an E34 5 series, including the rear axle assembly as a whole.

have a look on my build blog, I've tried to explain each step as I went through it, see some of the early posts for how I fitted the axle.

[Chris_]

Mmmmmm, just clicked the link and that first picture looks a lot like an M60.

Is it the 3 or 4 litre? Will have to have a good read through :D

Cheers
Chris

[aerosam]

indeed it is an M60, it's the 3 litre, mainly because I couldn't find a 4 litre donor with a manual box. Anyway, 220bhp should be just about enough power ;)

[Chris_]

It's not about the power, it's all about the noise :D

Chris