Complete pedal boxes.

[3GE Components]

For those of you who have been asking, here is a picture of the complete pedal box, these will be added to the website shortly.

They feature 'oilite' bushes so they are maintanance free for their life, no squeaky clutch pedals with these ;) Priced at £78 each, plus VAT & Delivery, these can be powdercoated in any colour combination you like for an extra £12. ( Yes Mark, pink pedals on a black back panels can be done :D )

Kind regards

John

[RAYLEE29]

so glad you havent drilled loads of holes in your pedals!!! lol:)

[flyerncle]

Pink and Diamonte studded John.....

[3GE Components]

Pink and Diamonte studded John.....

Is that to add grip to the pedals?

Regards

John

[flyerncle]

Not at all,Just to keep Fabby happy !

Although grippy surface is a requirement.

I sent you an e-mail John,if possible can it be done with twin cylinders too.

[Bonzo]

Looking good John :cool:

What's wrong with Pink !! :D :D

[SeriesLandy]

John;

Just a comment if I may? Sod it I will anyway!

I made a mistake in assembling the pedal box and welding it all up before I offered up the master cylinder and only then realized i had to enlarge the hole to something like 29 mm.

The fact I had all the pedal brackets welded in place was a major pain when it can to holding the box on my mill and drilling the large hole.

It is only a suggestion that people specify the hole size to suit their master cylinder and for a few extra £'s you drill that for them, then weld it all up.

Just a thought.

Adrian

I had to do the same, however I hadn't welded up before.
I tacked a bit of angle iron over the hole so I could centre the arbour for the holesaw then filled the original mounting holes with weld.

At the time I thought it was just me so didn't comment.

[HandyAndy]

I fabricated up a sort of sky hook on the mill bed with mine, still got it wrong and ended up drilling through a Vee block, I used a large cone cutter.

Sometimes i don't mind posting my build problems if it helps, but sometimes I think to myself DUH that was so stupid keep quiet.

It's all part of the game.

Adrian

Adrian, all info gained from you guys that are ahead of me & no doubt others is greatly welcomed, i,m no engineer or mechanic & sometimes the things being discussed go over top of my head but "ping" when the time comes when i confront the said subject i recall the thread/post & get it clear in my head what i need to do, so thanks for posting the items that you come across that cause a bit of head scratching, i assure you its helping me.:) :cool:
cheers
andy

[HandyAndy]

I think you will find a few of mine on from time to time Screw ups that is!

Cheers

Adrian

i,d call them "challenges" , but hey thats what its all about innit? ;) :)
cheers
andy

[flyerncle]

Learning curve that forgot to stop and turned into a circle more like.

[3GE Components]

The hole diameter was based on the parts we had, as with everything there seems to be more than one master cylinder size.

If people can post up their sizes here we can look at producing a "one size fits all" part.

We have Chris's drawings of the pedal box for the single seater, this features a twin master cylinder set up. I'll look into adapting this to fit the Roadster.

Kind regards

John.

[Spikehaus]

You have just lost a few sales John, everyone will now want to hold out for the twin master cylinder now! Looks great what you have made.

[fabbyglass]

Only snag with twin cylinders and bias bar is IVA want it locked permanently so you can't fiddle with it...may as well use the Sierra one then change after IVA;)

[HandyAndy]

may i use this thread to ask what might possibly be a really dumb question, but alas i,d like to know the answer as i,m probably too dim to work it out for myself :o :D

i,ve spent the day making my pedal box & as you do whilst filing, the mind tends to ponder on what i,m actually trying to make......

the question is "Why does the pedal box backplate need to be seperate from plate CP16?"
i understand the need might be to allow the removal of the pedal box or to allow the fabrication process easier but why not make the pedal box & CP16 as one piece? for the 1 piece to be bolted to the chassis so that removal for repair etc is still possible, also if this is feasible then the steering column support in CP16 could be adapted to allow removal of pedal box without needing to strip down the steering column.
your thoughts are welcomed....... or should i shut up & just build to the book plans???;) :D
cheers
andy

[dogwood]

Hi Andy.

It's never a dumb question if you don't know the answer.

i would think the reason it's 2 piece is weight.
If you made it all with 3mm plate it would be a bit heavy.
Cp16 is only 1mm if memory serves me correct.



David

[HandyAndy]

thanks David, i was expecting a barrage of "andy don,t be so dumb" responses :D
i do see your point but as CP16 is only approx 21cm by 27cm the extra weight surely can,t be that much greater ( sorry, haven,t got plates with me at home to weigh them) , i did stop & look at my chassis as i was building the pedal box & almost went & built it in 1 piece,
as its only a small area of increased weight which appears to be easier to fabricate as 1 piece it still may be worth while further discussion, various builders have argued/discussed( word argue said in jest) the pro,s & cons of steel or ali floor so a small piece of 3mm plate isn,t a huge increase in overall car weight.
maybe i,m thinking too far out of the box????? get it???? box=pedal box:D
andy

[onedayTM]

Hi guys,
I'm just about ready to drill my hole for sierra master cyl having now marked it out and the hole size required is 41mm. What I would like to know is as you unbolt it from the servo is there a rubber cover you can get for the open end where the push rod enters, or in fact do you need one?

cheers

tm

[Spikehaus]

I can see no reason from an engineering point of view why the pedalbox must be removal, but chassis plate CP16 is a structural part of the chassis to prevent twisting and also acts as a heat sheild to the engine compartment. I am sure if you made this as one fixed plate all will be ok. Nut it will need to be fully seam / stitch welded.

[AshG]

im welding mine in. if you dont you run the risk of it flexing slightly under braking. this in turn will cause the copper brake pipes to flex and eventually work harden.

what that means in simple terms is a cracked brake pipe which = crash.

from memory a few people with locosts have had it happen so i dont feel its worth the risk not to weld it in just for the sake of having a removeable pedal box that will most likely never need to be removed.

[HandyAndy]

im welding mine in. if you dont you run the risk of it flexing slightly under braking. this in turn will cause the copper brake pipes to flex and eventually work harden.

what that means in simple terms is a cracked brake pipe which = crash.

from memory a few people with locosts have had it happen so i dont feel its worth the risk not to weld it in just for the sake of having a removeable pedal box that will most likely never need to be removed.
good point Ash, makes sense on a safety point of view, so if pedal box back plate & CP16 were made as a 1 piece then welded in then this also would increase the strength of this critical area.
are you making it as 1 piece ?
andy

[AshG]

i have done mine in 2 pieces but simply because i purchased the precut chassis plate kit from 3ge. otherwise i would have done it all out of 3mm. i would suggest making the triangular bit with the hole for the steering colum out of 1mm though as i assume its designed to give a little should you have an accident.

[HandyAndy]

so i,m not barking up the wrong tree then?? :D :D
guess what i,ll be doing tomorrow then ;)
cheers
andy

[flyerncle]

Looking on the dark side as Ash suggests,that plate is where your feet are should you be unlucky enough to get hit midships and it would go a long way in stopping the chassis deforming.
I am thinking of a full plate just because it can be cut in one piece easily and folded to fit,it also forms a firewall and possibly a little know fact about accidents is the cause of fires is attributed to brake fluid being spillt on hot surfaces and anyone who has done any heating or welding near a flexy pipe will understand exactly what I mean.:eek:

[HandyAndy]

so a 1 piece 3mm pedal back plate/CP16 will be a safe & stronger alternative then? fully welded in into the chassis if i go this route?
it does make me wonder why its not been discussed before, thats why i thought it might be a dumb question to ask :o ;)
cheers
andy

[davidimurray]

Hello

Just a few thoughts to add to the discussion.

It has been suggested that the plate could flex if bolted in and that welding will prevent this. I don't see the logic behind this - the flex will be occuring due to the master cylinders being mounted in the middle of the plate and the plate will be deforming in the middle. Welding around the outside of the same plate will not help things. The plate can be thickened to stiffen it up, an alternatice would be to add a strengthening rib down the back to add some depth to the plate.

With regard to the accident side of things, in the frontal impact plane, a thicker plate will help the anti-penetration side of things from the front. In a side impact, the section will be stiffened because you have 'closed' out the section, a similar thing could be done with a diagonal brace. However, with a bolted in plate you have closed out the section - but with a different set of loads path, the maximum load being dictated by the tearing of the bolts through the plate.

I don't want to teach anyone to suck eggs, but people often think that making something thicker will make it stiffer. This is often not the case. It is down to the second moment of area and generally adding 'depth' in the direction the stiffness is required will have a much much greater affect.

[AshG]

i see where you are coming from david. the main flaw with the half section 3mm plate is that it is not actuallt bolted to the chassis. it is bolted through the upper half section 1mm plate and down to the 1.5mm floor. this is what is introducing the flex.

to remedy the issue i am suggesting the removal of the 1mm upper to which the pedal plate is bolted to.

the flex is not in the 3mm plate its self (this is very well designed as the 90degree bend on the bottom greatly strengthens the plate) its in the fixing points for the 3mm plate. by removing the 1mm plate and making a large 3mm plate you are removing the unbraced 1mm plate joint and by welding the plate to the surrounding chassis rails rather than fixing to the floor.

[HandyAndy]

i,m seeing a greater info gathering from my original query, so if i were to brace behind (engine bay side) the 3mm plate across the uprights in drivers footwell will this greatly add structural integrity to the pedal box arrangement, as base of pedal box is angled with main chassis rails am i right in thinking that adding a 25mm box tube half way up would be a good modification on strength of the surrounding area ?
thanks for your input David/Ash.

andy

[AshG]

sorry for the crude drawing

http://www.haynesroadster.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/plate.jpg


left is book design right is rework all in 3mm

in the book design the blue areas are not fixed the red areas are either welded or bolted. when you press on the brake pedal it pulls up the floor and pushed out the middle on the 1mm to 3mm joint. this creates a rocking motion


in the right picture the 1mm and 3mm plate has been replaced by a full 3mm plate. this plate has been welded directly to the chassis rails rather than the floor and unbraced 1mm plate. it has also been welded in the blue areas removing the rocking motion created by the poor fixing points in the book design.

another solution would be to keep the book design with the bolt fixings but also weld the blue areas to remove the rocking motion. but to be honest if you havent made the plates already its faster just to fabricate one 3mm plate.

i am keeping the book design as i have already got the precut plates but the blue areas will be welded to stop the rocking motion.

[HandyAndy]

nice explanation Ash, my original understanding was that the pedal box was bolted in so that it could be removed if need be, but i hardly think it ever will be,
today i made the back plate & pedal mounting plates, i have the 1mm cp16 cut ready but what i think i will do is use 3mm plate in place of cp16 so in effect as i,ve already cut the bottom plate i,ll join the 2 plates at the half way up position, similar to the 1mm plate join AND place a 25mm box tube at the joining face/edges on the inside of the footwell as that way i can fully weld the plates to box tube then fully weld the box tube to main chassis structure, this i think creates greater strength in the forward force of when you use the brake pedal hard & also greater structural strength in side impact of that footwell area.
would you agree?
andy

[AshG]

nope that wont work. :D if you weld a 25mm box section in the middle on the inside you will limit the travel of the pedals.

the only way to make it really strong is to have ribs pressed into the 3mm plate but to be honest thats overkill.

[AshG]

p.s godforbid if you are involved in a side impact. but honestly the foot well strength will be your last concern the side rails in the seating area will deform and crush like a tin can well before you worry about your feet.

i put my seats and harness intoday and thought oooo. i really would be buggared if someone hit this thing in the side.

rite time for bed :D gotta be up at 7am

[HandyAndy]

i was looking at the plan in the book & thought the box tube would just fit, did think it would clear the pedal travel, i,ll have a look tomorrow & see what will fit/work, but basically i,m intending using all 3mm plate & bracing it some way to reduce forward flex motion & side structural strength.
i,m no mechanic/engineer but i do enjoy the learning of what improvements/ ideas i get from building my chassis.
like said earlier i,m surprised this area (of this discussion ) hasn,t been discussed previously???;)
andy

[HandyAndy]

i bet you sat in the chassis & put harnesses on & thought..... hmmmmm not long now????? :cool: :D

andy

[AshG]

yep most definatly did :D

once you have welded in the 3mm plate you will see how strong it is. i would then work from there.

[flyerncle]

David,your thoughts please.
Full pedal box plate in 3mm plate to cover the complete section of that part of the bulkhead or the plate with 3 folded edges to fit inside the frame welded and the original folds on the floor.
Ash's comment is very interesting with regard to side impact and bears some thought,I am know thinking of cross bracing the floor and seat area.
I think Ash is also on the ball with 1mm plate for the steering support to stop the column moveing rearward in the event of an accident,something else to bear in mind !

[davidimurray]

Hello everyone

Firstly, I was thinking about AshG's point regarding welding and I must admit he is right. Think about a drum skin. If you apply a load in the middle, previously it would be transfering the load at the top and bottom - by welding the sides you reduce that load and distribute it around more - you also now have the drum skin affect.

With regard to the stiffness of the plate. The best way I can think of describing it is to get a piece of of strip 1mm thick and 30mm wide. Holding the strip across two benches with the wide side up, press down in the middle and watch it bend. Now rotate 90 degress and try and press down and bend again - it's a hell of a lot stiffer. For the maths a simple example here -http://physics.uwstout.edu/statStr/statics/Beams/bdsne47b.htm

If you look at the equation for a rectangle then the moment of inertia is
3
bd
12

Where b is the 'breadth' and d is the depth. Hence by making the section deeper you stiffen it by a cubed factor.

In the case of the pedal box you could add some form of strengthening rib across the back. However, by adding a narrow rib across the back you willl produce a stress raiser.i.e. a point or line where stress is concentrated. Hence it is better to add either a wide rib (such as a piece of box) or lots of smaller ribs. Flyerncle, your idea will add some strength to the plate, but not a great amount for the weight you will add. For a n interesting play - you could try taping a piece of card across the opening and try addining different forms of strengthening. I personally would look at some form of cross brace in the engine bay, this could be braced above and below to feed the load into the tubes either side.

Side impact is an interesting one. In this case stiff may not be the best. The obvious thought is that you don't want the side of the car to be 'crushed' but there are actually two things to consider - one is energy dissipation the other is penetration. You could make the side impact area extremely stiff, but what happens to all the force when you are hit. If you had a 'solid' chassis and you were hit then all the force would be transferred through the car and into you. 30 or 40G in a very short period of time can cause some serious damage to the human body. Your better off trying to disspate that same energy over time, some some flex and bending in the chassis can be good. Think of modern crumple zones. The guys I use to work with designing racing monocoques used to allow about 20mm of bending over a typical space frame. The idea being that the driver might get a little squashed and bruised - but the severity of his injuries would be less.

That's some food for thought!

[RAYLEE29]

I agee that the plates in this area are for protection,
but I thought it was to protect your feet from an exploding flywheel.
Is this not the case?
also is flex in this area a real issue most pedalboxes in pruction cars have a certain amount of flex and use steel brake pipes and can run for hundreds of thousands of miles without pipes fracturing and causing accidents.
Or am I missing the point?
Ray:)

[flyerncle]

Thanks David,all makes sense.