opinions on welds

[james3004]

Please can you give me you opinions on the following welds?

I'm not really sure if i need to make them hotter, my welder is a clarke 150EN with argonsheild gas

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/ZVHturbo18/roadster/weld1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/ZVHturbo18/roadster/weld2.jpg

Thanks

[Rik178m]

I'm not sure about them. I had some welds looking fairly similar and the had no penetration. Checked them at work. Try breaking the welds with a lump hammer to check how deep the penetration is.

If you pause for a few seconds will you burn a hole through the steel? The heat pattern does look ok tho so I could very well be wrong

[james3004]

thanks for the replies, I'm using 0.8mm, I was worried that they were to high i didn't even think that i would be caused by the wire thickness :o

I will do a destructive test another day.

Thanks again

[james3004]

looks like i'm off to buy some 0.6mm wire then;)

[mr henderson]

looks like i'm off to buy some 0.6mm wire then;)

My Haynes Roadster book is at the workshop, bit I seem to remember Martin Keene (in the section on welding) saying that .8 was the stuff to use

[mr henderson]

Any particular, technical reason as to why .8mm wire is superior to .6mm wire !!? :confused: :confused:

I think we need to bear in mind that MK engineering will be using industrial MIG welders. ;)

My own set is a Cebora 180amp semi-pro MIG welder & I use .6mm wire full time. :)

You would need to ask Martin. In any case, I would assume that (and this of course depends on whether I am remembering correctly) he would have written it as advice to amateur builders (it's in the section on welding)

[drury318]

For years I used 0.6 wire, mainly on bodywork etc & upto building my chassis I would have said exactly the same as Bonzo, 0.6 all the time no probs.Then I ran out of wire whilst building my chassis & got some 0.8, what a difference.
I can turn the power down and wire speed down, I have less tendency to blow through on butt welds and generally everything is just a bit easier I find, it may be just me but I wish I`d tried it years ago
Dennis

[mr henderson]

I have just read the welding section of my first edition of the book.
No reccomenation of wire thickness is mentioned :confused:

I guess it must be a case of me using the welder wrong for the las 20 years, not to mention wasting good money on becoming an ASME coded welder.

I just feel sorry for all of my students that I have miss-lead :D :p

Well I did keep saying if I was remembering correctly! Must have not been (although I will have a look when I get to the workshop tomorrow (if I remember :) )

[Chris Gibbs]

It's on page 144 (0.8)

I think that you should try both and see which gives you the best result or you feel more comfortable with. It's a pretty good feeling when everything clicks and you know that your welds are good. :D

Those welds look pretty good to me James :cool:

Cheers

Chris :)

[james3004]

I think i'm gonna try 0.6 wire to see if i feel more comfortable and confident with the welds produced, I'd rather they were flatter then at least i know they are penertrated well and won't have to worry as much about the weakening when it comes to grinding them off:)

[mr henderson]

It's on page 144 (0.8)






:p :p :p :p :

[flyerncle]

Ronnie has hit it again,.6 for light stuff and .8 for commercial.
I use a commercial set coupled with a spot welder that at full duty will produce 1,000 amps and when the trigger is pulled the 1 1/2" cables jump alarmingly upwards.

[alga]

How interesting. The welding gear vendor I bought my set from told me I can get more power from the welder if I up the wire to 1.0... Any comments Ronnie?

[mr henderson]

I expect it's more a question of technique than anything else. A good welder will get good results with a variety of set-ups, and a bad welder won't.

Furthermore, a good welder will get better results with a particular set-up than he would with another set-up, but another welder might find he prefers the other set-up.

You get the same thing with guitar players. In the end, it's in the fingers.

[Bonzo]

[QUOTE=alga;19966... Any comments Ronnie?[/QUOTE]

None that I would like to post on a public forum !!??

That's me done on the subject !!

[alga]

None that I would like to post on a public forum !!??

That's me done on the subject !!

I'm sorry, no offence intended! Must be the language barrier.

[Sam]

Alga, I dont thinkk theres any easy way to explain it but. A MIG power source has a Flat characteristic, i.e small change in voltage = large change in amps, this maintains arc length. pull torch away from workpiece arc gets longer resitance increases amperage goes down burn off rate reduces wire gets closer to workpiece correct arc length is maintained. Increase the wire diameter to 1mm and maintain wire feed your pushing more wire into weld pool therefore more amperage required to burn off wire therefore more heat into workpiece and more penetration. Having said that the voltage will obviously need to be increased. Now if your welding set you have purchased has the capacity you will certainly be able to liberate more power and a higher current density from larger wire diameters.

[AshG]

lets get back to the question asked.

those welds look fine. dont worry too much about the height thats what the grinder is for.

[RAYLEE29]

just thought id add my 2p's worth
those welds look ok to me
I always use .8 but if you use .6 just turn up the wire feed
Ray:)

[mark]

I always use .8 aswell but as someone previously said its what you feel most comfortable with, if you got your settings correct both should achieve the same results.

Those look good enough to me.

Once you have more experience and confidence in your welds you just "know" when its penetrated properly....... oo er missus ;)

mark

[ACE HIGH]

"
"MIG welding is the most difficult of all manual processes to master"


This quote comes from Richard Finch's book Performance welding,Motorbooks Powertech series.I agree entirely,because most MIG welders reach a certain basic level and do not improve much.I suggest that anyone that is serious about improving their MIG welding purchase this book ,written by a hot rod and aircraft enthusiast.

MIG welding is complex and quite a science and before you change wire speeds ,diameters ,gases etc one needs a basic understanding of what is happening,this book explains it well and I highly recommend it if you wish to improve your welding with MIG.

Anyone reading this who is a competent Manual Arc welder (stick) would be much better off using arc welding on these light tubes,faster (it would take longer to get one refill bottle than remove the slag on the entire chassis),the welders and consumables are cheap and the finished job will be better.In fact the lost interest on a MIG welder would pay for all the manual arc welding rods,grinding discs and hacksaw blades needed for the job.
David:)

[RAYLEE29]

Just read the above,
In my opinion and with respect
I feel that mig welding is the easiest form of weldind known to man (or woman)
in my time ive gas welded silver soldered stick tig carbon arc brazed and mig welded so a pretty good spread
anyone considering using stick to weld theyre chassis best of luck
but i would say mig is best and easiest
tig is good but slow and possibilty of more distortion
stick forget it
awaiting flak with baited breath
Ray:)

[Bonzo]

That is certainly the modern school of thought ;)

You are a brave soul Ray :eek:

Such a pitty that it will fall onto deaf ears :rolleyes: :D

[RAYLEE29]

What eh pardon lol
Ray:)

[mr henderson]

I'm not aware of any full time professional chassis builders who use anything other than MIG. I''m not saying that they don't, just that I'm not aware of them. And I see a lot of different chassis.

[fabbyglass]

I worked for a motorsport engineering firm who only had tig sets, everything was tig welded from wishbones to sexy fabricated uprights and chassis in either normal every day steel or the tricky chromoly stuff.;)

[les g]

"
"MIG welding is the most difficult of all manual processes to master"


This quote comes from Richard Finch's book Performance welding,Motorbooks Powertech series.I agree entirely,because most MIG welders reach a certain basic level and do not improve much.I suggest that anyone that is serious about improving their MIG welding purchase this book ,written by a hot rod and aircraft enthusiast.

MIG welding is complex and quite a science and before you change wire speeds ,diameters ,gases etc one needs a basic understanding of what is happening,this book explains it well and I highly recommend it if you wish to improve your welding with MIG.

Anyone reading this who is a competent Manual Arc welder (stick) would be much better off using arc welding on these light tubes,faster (it would take longer to get one refill bottle than remove the slag on the entire chassis),the welders and consumables are cheap and the finished job will be better.In fact the lost interest on a MIG welder would pay for all the manual arc welding rods,grinding discs and hacksaw blades needed for the job.
David:)

can i just say what a load of bollocks
who ever wrote that is a cretin.....................
if you want to weld 16 gauge erw the easiest must be a mig welder
if you want to weld a bollard to the deck of a tugboat in the docks or a pipeline outdoors
a girt big 3 phase stick welder oil cooled is the boy for that job
thats the truth i,ve these jobs
cheers les g
and i,ll get Ronnie and Minimad would back that statement 100% bin there done and got the burns to prove it

[minimad]

can i just say what a load of bollocks
who ever wrote that is a cretin.....................
if you want to weld 16 gauge erw the easiest must be a mig welder
if you want to weld a bollard to the deck of a tugboat in the docks or a pipeline outdoors
a girt big 3 phase stick welder oil cooled is the boy for that job
thats the truth i,ve these jobs
cheers les g
and i,ll get Ronnie and Minimad would back that statement 100% bin there done and got the burns to prove it

100% backed there matey but pulsed mig for welding 50mm ali plate like what i have to do when i go back on Monday :D
oops nearly forgot 0.8 for the chassis

[ACE HIGH]

Well we will agree to disagree,only I wont be insulting.I also have considerable experience including (retired now) all position low hydrogen welding 1/2 inch plate (Lloyds)Oil rig, and plenty of mass production MIG welding including 5/8 plate.The book's author is a consultant to NASA.Its the leading statement I am attributing to him (no more.)

There are at least 4 types of MIG welding,and there is not much point in comparing wire speed/diameters/heat ranges etc unless the welders are identical.Not a good idea to take advice from a mate who may have a B.O.C,Miller,or Lincoln welder when your own welder may be a "big box" shop welder from who knows what company who last year made give away radios for weetbix packets,(or vice versa.Thats a general comment ,I am not pointing the finger at anyone.The science is more complex than one realises.


My preference for arc welding is that most of your young guys are probably pretty short on money and rather than spend a lot of money on a high maintainance MIG or TIG welder if they are allready"up to speed' on Arc welding they can improve their welding and save a fortune in expenses,plus as a bonus any good arc welders can make a lot of money all over the world'.
Also they can if they wish build themselves a Yacht or Motorboat later on,(as I have done.)I dont dispute the fact that pretty well all engineering busineses and for many varied reasons,(all good)use MIG,I am saying dont write off arc(stick) welding.

Finally,and this will get you going,most of the MIG welding I have seen on sites and elsewhere is in my opinion not up to standard,mainly being overwelded and lacking penetration.For anyone who is confused by any of this I recommend Richard Finch's Book ,lots of good info on all types of welding.
I have certainly learned plenty myself.I do not claim to be an expert on the subject,I believe that it is good for all on these forums to have constructive informed 'robust"discussion.David:D

[ACE HIGH]

learned plenty from Richard's book I should have written.David:)

[dogwood]

I would like to point out that I have been a pro welder for 40 years...



I've got no comments, I just thought I would tell you...:D :D :D

David

[mr henderson]

can i just say what a load of bollocks
who ever wrote that is a cretin.....................


That's well over the top, and not the way I would like to see this forum go. By all means argue the point, but don't attack people just because you disagree with them.

[Sam]

I agree with David to an extent. MIG is def. the most difficult process to set-up. Few people set machine correctly and have mastered fine trimming of parameters. However if you have someone to set the machine or one of the new funky machines that set themselves (well trim themselves for optimum transfer) it is by far the easiest process in terms of manual dexterity required. I have seen many a so called 'Coded' welder that cant trim welding parameters on a MIG set because it has always been done for them in terms of preset programs or via a welding engineer.

[Bonzo]

I have seen many a so called 'Coded' welder that cant trim welding parameters on a MIG set because it has always been done for them in terms of preset programs or via a welding engineer.

Personally, I find that comment deeply offensive :(

I worked very hard to earn the first of my ASME codings.

1: I had to demonstrate that I posessed a full, in depth knowledge of the process involved. That included the equipment & the science involved in the process of welding.

2: Writen examinations that had to be passed before you could even submit a test piece.
Not one of the new fangled multiple choice exams. A propper one with no tick boxes.

3: Eqiupment & test pieces had to be set up by the candidate in person, The LLoyds inspector would personally watch you do it.
The LLoyds inspector would also observe the following. Root run, fill & cap ( Keen to ensure thet the set-up tacks were ground out & all joints were back ground as needed.
At no piont would the LLoyds inspector offer advice or comment on your progress.

4: With coding in hand. You go to an interview...........Yes you guessed right, have to go through it all again :rolleyes:


I assume that by the comments made, that the poster works in an eviroment that makes full use of the robotic welding devices available.
In this case the equipment is often set up by a welding engineer. More to do with quality assurance than the ability of the welder !!??

Now that is really my final word on the subject of welding :D :D

[Sam]

Bonzo, theres no need for you to find it offensive.

I am a welding engineer, with hands on experience and have in the past had welder approvals (codings as people like to call them) for a variety of joints and standards 287 / ASME. I have also taught at the local technical college. I now run my own business and employ welders.

What I find aggrevating as an employer is the way people band around the term I am a CODED welder, I'm great. Most people who do this are no longer CODED as they havent been working within there range of approval for the last six months or its been 2 years since the approval. Secondly 90% of people on this forum who have managed to weld there chassis I could get through a Lloyds welding approval for a 3mm MIG fillet weld in the flat position whether it be BS EN or ASMI. Dont get me wrong Im not saying all welder approvals are easy, if you can weld 6" pipe at 45 degrees in position with MMA I'll take my hat of to you, youve got some skill. What you should take offense at is some of the people ive employed that come to interview saying there a coded welder, and the best I get is a line of metal bird poo. There the ones devalueing your welder approvals.

[AshG]

even when i did my nvq welding course part of the exam was being able to setup the plant and explain process to the examiner. we then had to do a 50 question verbal test followed by various test pieces done both horizontally and vertically. you got one go at each test piece and they were all visually inspected and destruction tested on start and stop areas.

i would find it hard to believe that a coded welder wouldnt be able to setup the plant that he/she is coded for.

as sam has said its usually people that tell porkies that ruin it for the people who have actually bothered to do it properly

[Sam]

Ash

You dont have to do any kind of welding course to get a coding, the theoretical side of a coding is very basic.

All I was getting at is some basic / standard / easy codings are achievable relatively easily. It proves you can proficiently lay down a weld within the range of that approval. Which can be very narrow and doesn't mean your capable outside of that range ! Bonzo I'm NOT insulting your approvals, the standard / difficulty of achieving an approval is all in the specifications of said approval.

If youve been in the industry for long you will have seen hundreds of these sorts, they come and go quickly !!

[RAYLEE29]

Oh dear this topic does seem to have got a little heated doesnt it
take it easy guys were all supposed to be being helpuful to fellow builders
now if you all want to shout at me thats fine im going to do some stuff on my car:)

[Land Locked]

Okay, now I have to stick my oar in. :D I regularly stick weld 1.6mm wall material, which is often rusted and will probably stick my chassis too.

I have no welding qualification or "coding" except what I do in my day to day work. If I don't like the weld I just did I grind the bugger out and do it again. Grinder discs are lasting longer and longer now.:p

When I started using stick on this paper thin material I quickly became very proficient at the patching of holes as I found it hard to not blow a hole.:rolleyes:

Currently I use about 90Amps (May be slightly less) through a 2mm rod to join 1.6mm, seems to work a charm.

Heaven forbid I lose concentration and blow a hole in my chassis, I will cut the relevant section out and redo it.:D

[Bonzo]

Bonzo, if you can weld 6" pipe at 45 degrees in position with MMA I'll take my hat of to you

I guess so

ASME IX 6G Pipe MMA

ASME IX 6G Pipe MMA + TIG root

Best drop your pants too :D :D

I'll get my coat :o :rolleyes:

[thwang]

my late dads arc welding was way better than my mig welding reason been he had the full bag of mashings class A sigma 9 lloyds he used to weld valves for nuclear plants . he would never touch a mig set only gas or arc some times i wish he was still here i learnt more with him than the lectures at tec lol my instructer at tec was tourte by my dad small world isnt it.
thwang

[ACE HIGH]

I am not going to say any more after this post on this subject,my motive was simply to help people become better welders and in particular help those who were on a budget use an old well proven way to build there chassis quickly ,strongly and cheaply.

I recommend Richard Finch's book,learn about the science of MIG welding(the fastest and least accurate form of welding) and go to your local BOC/Lincoln shop or whoever you have over there for some up to date advice.Their staff are well trained and helpful,and if you have a good knowledge of your equipment and how it works they will help you reach the next level.

No need for anyone to be offended with this comment,I seek advice from BOC myself,after all someone called me a"cretin" and I am not offended by that,thought it was rather funny actually!David:D :D

[alga]

I'd like to put forth some ideas in defence of ACE HIGH's quote. There's a common meme (http://www.google.com/search?q=10000+hours) that mastery of any complex subject (computer programming, lawn tennis, playing a violin, anything), takes in the order of 10000 hours. That's 5 years at 40 hours a week, with no holidays or distractions. I would be very surprised if anyone on this forum has spent this amount of time welding. At 5 m/min, it sums up to 47 tons of 0.8 wire, over three thousand 15 kg rolls!

Everyone would agree that the MIG/MAG process is the easiest to get started with, and probably easiest to get reasonably competent, but who knows about mastery, other than people who have become masters of different welding processes?

[minimad]

i'm not knocking stick i love using 5mm's on 50mm plate but i still thing mig works better on thin sh*t i do also agree with you that low hi's are a great rod