Bike Engine Position

[chriseyj]

Hi, I have bought a zx9r engine and dropped it in my chassis on blocks to see how it fits, but I could use some advice on it's position.

I don't think I can get the output sprocket in line with the centre of the tunnel/diff but I have noticed on several bike installs people sometimes have to angle the engine. Will it be ok offset or angled? am worried about prop vibration.

Also where the cam chain runs the sump hangs down a bit how how much can I leave sticking out below the chassis rails? I Understand I need to get the sump level.

Also should I shuffle it up close to the bulkhead or is it easy to leave space to get at alternator cover e.t.c.

P.S picked engine up last sunday it was nearly a 3 hour drive!, could not lift it out though and it has lived in the boot of my Celica for a week. Made a block and tackle in the end to lift it out over the wifes swinging bench frame. I don't think she's noticed the m10 holes I drilled in it.

Cheers Chris

[flyerncle]

Chris, you may need to baffle the sump to stop oil surge before you install it.
In the car it fit's east/west not north/south if you get my meaning.
Make sure the float chambers are level as well when its fitted or they will flood.

[chriseyj]

Thanks for the reply.
I read zx9r's need baffling but I was going to buy it at a later date when I can afford it and get the cradle built for the time being. I presume if the engine is level as it was designed to be i.e sump at right level then the carbs should be at the right angle also. The oil level window has a useful level guide on it.

I'm still unsure about the output shaft angle and offset and how this will effect the propshaft phasing I might ask on locost builders or search for posts as there are a lot of BEC's on there. Perhaps the center bearing or reversing box neccessary on a BEC helps cut down the vibration.

Can any one estimate the height of the nosecone so that I can get an idea of my bonnet clearance as I cant afford either a nose cone or a scuttle yet. I am sure scuttle height is in the book.

Cheers

[HandyAndy]

i haven,t got my car with me but seem to remember that the nose is 17cm above the top rails of the chassis in the center point & the scuttle is i think 21cm above TR9 on the cockpit side, i can get confirmed measurements tomorrow if you wish?

maybe use the above info & place some steel to those heights & place a string line between the 2 to give idea of the bonnet height, but don,t forget that the bonnet has a small bulge in it so giving slightly more engine clearance .

hope that helps.

andy

[chriseyj]

Thanks Andy your as helpful as ever. I was thinking of make a couple of simple mdf templates and mount them at the scuttle and nosecone and place some box section across as you say.
Have you any idea what is a reasonable amount of sump to have hanging down below chassis rails.
Cheers Chris

[ozzy1]

I built a formula 27 with a zx9 engine and this is what i can remember.
You will need to baffle the sump to stop oil surge,this is done with just flat plate of ali with cutouts for pickup etc. I think there is a company on ebay that do these.Also you can machine off the large piece of sump that angles down and has the drain plug in,move this to the side.
The alignment of the sprocket mount to the diff should be easy to get pretty spot on as the engine bay will easily have enough room for this,also the centre bearing mount will help with the vibration.The engine was also solid mounted.
With regard to the wiring you will also need to find and join the wires together for the sidestand cutout if you use the original loom.In respect of the oil window fill it to the max,probably obvious but better safe than sorry.
Not sure if this small pic helps with engine pos/angle?

[HandyAndy]

i,m not sure of sump depths of a bike engine in the chassis as i,m using the cvh engine but my sump( shortened sump) is level with the bottome edge of the lower chassis rails, although my gearbox bellhousing is 25mm below the bottome chassis rail,
from my experience of bikes ( ex racer...) the engines are very compact so i don,t think you,ll have any sump below the chassis & still have clearance under the bonnet, i,m pretty sure your zx9 engine won,t be any taller than my cvh engine.
that nose measurement i gave was taken from the engine compartment point of the nose cone NOT the front of the nose/car.

i try my best to help when i can ;) :)

cheers
andy

[chriseyj]

Thanks Ozzy I read one of your previous posts about using a zx9r. Thanks for the pic and advice I will try and get the output sprocket dead center if you reckon there's room.
Have seen the baffles for £39 somewhere will buy one at some point.

Not sure I have the ability to machine down sump do you mean just the patr protecting the drain plug not chopping that hole area and welding?

Thanks Andy I presumed you meant engine compartment part of nose cone, does this start at the front top rail?
Cheers.

[ozzy1]

yeah just the part at the drain plug as this hangs about 60mm lower than the rest of the sump.Im sure someone near you will be able to help.From what i recall my sump was about 50mm below the bottom rail thats why the part by the sump plug is machined off.just be aware that the sump alloy is very cheap quality shit and needs to be very clean to get a good penetrating weld.Im sure i recall there are a couple of companies who machine a whole new reduced height billet sump to suit this engine but cost about 500 quid!!You will also need to reduce the oil pickup pipe length.Maybe worth emailing few companies like Mk,spire etc.
I had mine done by Formula 27 ,now owned by image sportscars i think.
Currently a guy doing them on ebay for 28quid,says email him for different models .item number is 110450647037
On a different note i found the 3.62 ratio diff much more pleasant to drive than the 3.92 most people recommend.

[chriseyj]

Thanks again for the advice I'll work on having that long part of the sump 50mm below and get it modified when the time comes.

I notice from you picture Ozzy that therocker cover is almost inline with the side rail (unless it's an illusion). Does this mean the engine was slightly angled from front to back and the crank/engine isn't parallel with the chasis front to back.
Hope I make sense.

[ozzy1]

ok here goes from what i can remember,
The front left hand of the engine(as viewed from drivers seat)was close to the chassis rail but this chassis was a narrow body compared to roadster.
The important thing is to get the sprocket mount shaft inline with the diff firstly,the engine is tipped east to west as in the bike (same angle ish),this makes the engine faces below the carbs parallel with the chassis rails on left & right side.no your carbs wont flood.(have a look at a zx9 engine in bike at a shop or breakers,will explain a lot )you can then level engine with a level for front to rear or use a piece of pipe to centre of diff and measure.
The 'v' shaped lump on the sump wants machining off level or best as to rest of sump.the main flat area of the sump on mine sat approx 50mm below chassis rail but this is governed by the sprocket to diff levelling and alignment so dont use 50mm as gospel.
I have a few pics on my laptop i can send u if u pm me your email address,i have more build pics but they are in transit with my belongings and due in december which would probably help you more which i can also scan and email u when they arrive.
hope this makes some sense?


steve

[Tilly819]

You have PM, Regarding coming to see mine, I can take you threw most of the oddities like the wires, prop and sproket adapter etc etc, mounting, ram air inlets etc exhaust

Drom me a message, im about almost all the time,

Tilly

[chriseyj]

I've been playing around with the postion of my engine and have found to get everything level and the output shaft inline I need the sump to sit above one of the lower chassis rails. Does this seem right? Have the sump level left to right also. I prefer when the sump was just tucked up against the chassis rail and sitting in the void between the 2 rails, the output shaft was then out of line though similar to a Stuart Taylor Locosaki I've been reading about

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2585/4078172115_e1f1dfa1c0.jpg

This raises the engine up and going by Handy Andy's estimate of the scuttle and nose height I will definately have carb sticking out of the bonnet let alone air filter.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3527/4078928820_1b3a31e717.jpg
The lump can be chopped off so am not to worried.

Here is a picture of how far over it is, it looks ok.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2546/4078171839_11cd30f4a4.jpg

I am wondering if I should just mount it lower and to the side of the chassis rail and have a slight prop offset?
Thanks Chris

[slimtater]

There are a few pictures in my sig that may help - albeit a 'blade engine. The prop is offset but only for a short distance until it meets the bearing/mount.
Everything fits under the bonnet but I know Tilly is having to look at a bulge or scoop for his.

[chriseyj]

I think alot of people end up with a slight offset, and get the impression it isn't as bad when the front part of the prop shaft is short going into a centre bearing or reversing box.
Would rather mount it a bit lower. Your car looks great slim I love the chassis colour. It's amazing how similar looking the fireblade engine is to my zx9r, even the rocker cover nuts and clutch cover.

This guy has his zx9 mounted at an angle front to back it is a stuart taylor locosaki the chassis is almost identical. His sump is the otherside of the rail and slightly lower.
http://www.roebuck.eclipse.co.uk/pics/photos020714/123-2364_img.jpg

You can see here he has an ofset on his prop.
http://www.roebuck.eclipse.co.uk/pics/photos020727/124-2474_img.jpg

Chris

[slimtater]

Chris,
Just noticed you are in Derbyshire (here was me thinking Roadsters were only built up north, down south and down under!!) - happy for you to have a good look over my car. As you say, they will be similar and Tilly also is well on the way to completing his BEC build.
Tim

[Tilly819]

Grrrrr i wish my prop was that straight...... ooh err....
and yes as tim said im having to get creative with the air inlet, just in the process as i type this of designing a new 2 part airbox hoping to have the bottem half attached to the inlets and the top half to be the inside off the bonnet scoop... giving me a right headache...


What are you doing for reverse??

Tilly

[chriseyj]

Hi Tilly I have been building my engine craddle most of the weekend and missed your posts.
I was planning on doing some kind of electrical reverse like you have mentioned in the past, I really can't afford a reversing box. Did you use a smaller bike starter? and have you got any kind of speed controller on the motor? I bet you had to have the gear made to go on the diff flange.
I'll have to have a look at both yours and slims cars at some point.
Cheers Chris

[Tilly819]

Hi chris,

Yes i have a electric reverse,

Its consists of a starter moter mounted in the Transmition tunnel facing the rear of the car, onto a gear on the diff,

i built mine for £105 for comparison MK Sportcscars want £350 for theres and theres is bigger and heivier and you need to put a hole in the floor to get it to fit and they clame that you cannot get a starter moter that goes the wrong way like is nessarry, but i assure you you can, il let you now what car its off when i remember, but MK sparts cars really P*SS*D me off with this because they claimed that i had to buy theres and it could not be done any other way and there starter moter had been speshaly modified but mistacaly they could not tell me what they had done to it. really had to fight to get them to sell me the gear on its own.... i carnt understand why a company would not want to sell you something...

OK OK rant over but they really wound me up, i meen get real £350 for a gear and a starter moter.... GRRRRR

In answer to your other question no i do not have a speed control, to be honest i dont think its really nessary.

hope this helps Tilly

[Bonzo]

Some of the Japanese car engines run anti-clockwise, surely their strarter motors must also. :confused: :confused:

May be me having another senior moment though :D :D

[chriseyj]

Thanks for the info.
I see so MK do the gear but want to sell you the whole shebang, I can see why but it's a bit pricey. I'm not great at arguing my case will see if I can just get the gear also when the time comes, wouldn't know where to start to get one laser cut.

I never thought of the starters direction but I suppose this is crucial, I wonder if any starter will run in reverse its only a motor unless the brushes are designed in a certain way. I guess the engaging solenoid will only pull in with the polarity the right way though, perhaps thats what you mod.

Have you hard mounted your engine Tilly thats what I'm doing, I read alot of people do, Slim has his on rubber doughnuts I notice.

Chris

[Land Locked]

Off the top of my head Golf 1 and early Passat have similar starters that turn in opposite directions.

[3GE Components]

Some of the Japanese car engines run anti-clockwise, surely their strarter motors must also. :confused: :confused:

May be me having another senior moment though :D :D

The problem with selecting the correct starter motor is that not only does the engine direction effect it but also the mounting position, some mount gearbox side, some engine side this effect which way they rotate.

We recently did a conversion for a customer's Spire GTR, he supplied the starter motor and we made the fitting kit & gear ring, which was to be removable after IVA, so we dovetailed the ring in 2 places. We calculated the gear ring to give a reverse speed of about 7mph as it was going to be switch operated (on or off)

It worked beautifully, forwards, with the starter supplied. This has since been rectified with a more suitable starter motor.

The only problem with laser cutting one is how long the gear ring will last, although if it's not too hard to get at it doesn't really mater if they have to be replaced from time to time.

Kind regards

John

[Tilly819]

Hi chris, i used a seat ibiza 1.2 petrol 2002 model starter, yes any starter will run the other way since its DC but the bendix has a one way bearing in that will only engage in one direction...

Cost me 30 quid from the scrappys, just took a batery and jumper lead to the yard and tested a few till i got one..

hope this helps
Tilly

[Tilly819]

PS it also meshes perfectly with the MK gear

[chriseyj]

Very interesting, thanks for all this the info I need to write it all down so I know what to get when the time comes.
We still have my wifes 03 Ibiza since she has a company car now and we've been meaning to sell it for 3 years. I better not borrow the starter though I'm pushing my luck building a kit car on the patio.
It's her 30th in December so I think I'm going to be short on car funds leading up to xmas, thought about buying her a scuttle but her dad didn't think she'd appreciate it.
Maybe when its my 30th in a couple of years she can pay for my IVA, might be ready at this rate.

Did you get your prop from MK as well Tilly, I've seen a few with an adjustable length section near the diff. Was the gear for reverse expensive.

Chris.

[HandyAndy]

It's her 30th in December so thought about buying her a scuttle

Chris.

:D :D superb, classic , made me laugh :D :D

andy

[Tilly819]

I got my prop shaft done at wilson drive shafts in nottingham, gear from MK was £75 which they CLAIMED to be cost price, i wrote down the name on the box somewere were they had baught them from but i carnt remember what it was but if i find out or remember il let you now be cheaper then going to MK sportscars.

Tilly

[chriseyj]

Thanks Tilly that would be handy if you knew who the gear came from, £75 quid is like 3/4 of what you said it cost you to create a reverse!

I have nearly finished welding my engine cradle, earlier though I noticed some pitting on my clutch cover near the gasket to the block, are these Magnesium because I think it may be weld splatter from tacking the cradle.

I think the paint must be thin at the edge of the cover and the spatter has touched metal, they are all within 3mm of the edge, it seeded to of turned it to a graphite like substance the pitting is only shallow 0.5mm so sprayed some galv spray on it.

Also can welding with your engine in damage the electronic sensors? am guessing all the current will flow to the earth clamp. Am guessing the RF spikes wouldn't do an ECU any good.


Chris

[Tilly819]

you should always disconect the battery when welding on a car, or at least that was what i was taught, both pos and neg

tilly