Whats Your fueling preference.

[twinturbo]

Next poll for our demographics...

What would be your prefered fueling system.

[twinturbo]

EFI For me :)

TT

[GraemeWebb]

Will probably start with bike carbs but would like throttle boddies one day.

[dogwood]

Just fitting a 2.0 pinto EFI

[twinturbo]

with selectable maps to suit.


Adrian

Realy there should be no need for selectable maps.

TT

[frankie boy]

Just fitting a 2.0 pinto EFI

Hi David
What mod have you made to the EFI to fit in the roadster?

[RAYLEE29]

NITROMETHANE

Ray:)


you cant beat bike carbs for bang for bucks

[dogwood]

Hi David
What mod have you made to the EFI to fit in the roadster?

None....
When I get my computa back I'll post a pic.
But I am gong to need a bonnet scoop of some sort to cover the plenum.

[RAYLEE29]

of course the ultimate n/a set up is roller barrel t/bs with fully mapped sequential injection
Ray:)

[alga]

Realy there should be no need for selectable maps.

Right, as the Megasquirt manual puts it, the throttle pedal is the map selector.

[alga]

Carbs must disappear like the rotary dial phones and cassette players did. There is much better tech for the same purpose, we're 1/10 the way through the 21-st century!

[dogwood]

Hi David
What mod have you made to the EFI to fit in the roadster?

Here ya go Frankie.
Forgot I posted this last week

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/muddypaws4x4/proplength018.jpg

[frankie boy]

Cool Not to much coming out of the bonnet. Burton do some scoops in versus sizes had one on my old bonnet.

[twinturbo]

Carbs must disappear like the rotary dial phones and cassette players did. There is much better tech for the same purpose, we're 1/10 the way through the 21-st century!

My brother in laws missues has a 57 plate Skoda with a tape deck/radio.. I could not belive it!!! I thought it was bad in my 02 Galaxy but at least that has an autochanger!



TT

[Land Locked]

Carbs must disappear like the rotary dial phones and cassette players did. There is much better tech for the same purpose, we're 1/10 the way through the 21-st century!

Carbs = K.I.S.S. Simple works for me EVERY time.:p

[Davey]

I'm fitting bike throttle bodies (from a 600 Honda summat), got two sets which easily split into pairs so I can run three pairs straight down the middle. Got to make up an inlet manifold yet which should be fun. I then plan to use an Emerald ECU for fully sequential injection, just got to find one at a sensible price.

D.

[twinturbo]

Any reason for sequential? Do you have a cam phase sensor?

TT

[Bonzo]

This poll is missing an ........ I aint got a friggin clue option !!?? :o :D

Seriously though, my roots are firmly rooted to the carb era, that said, I very open minded about all options.

I guess that is why I have a collection of the following: Original stock ecu, megasquirt, megajolt, stock injection, bike throttle bodys, bike carbs, access to a pair of twin webbers if needed & heck I even have a pair of Stromberg CD150's kicking about ( Yeah I know they were crap ) :o

Who knows what my build will eventually end up with :confused:

[GraemeWebb]

I started to look into making my own throttle boddies a year ago when I had access to a lathe and milling m/c. It can be done very cheaply, even bought brass sheet for the butterfly's and brass rod for the spindles. Block of aluminium offcuts are not expensive. Would have to source linkages and springs etc. but using bits of old SU's or such like is a possability.

Anyone in the Rugby area with machining facilities willing to give it a go?

[spud69]

Throttle bodies and megasquirt - 1st option

Bike carbs and megajolt is a good cheaper alternative though, as long as your not worried about fuel economy.

[davidimurray]

For Phase 1- IVA - bike carbs and Megajolt for ease of emmissions tweaking
Phase 2 - engine change - bike carbs & Megajolt
Phase 3 - megasquirt

[Bonzo]

For Phase 1- IVA - bike carbs and Megajolt for ease of emmissions tweaking
Phase 2 - engine change - bike carbs & Megajolt
Phase 3 - megasquirt


That sounds like a nice progressive plan to me David :cool: :)

As for me !! ..... Going to have a crack at running the Zetec with the stock ECU & re-worked inlet manifold.
Mainly just for the challenge & in the full knowledge that this is probably not the best performance option ;)

If it all goes tits up ?? ..... I guess, throttle bodies & Megasquirt ..... or will I !!?? :rolleyes:

[slimtater]

Bike carbs on errrr......












.....a bike engine!

[twinturbo]

Why not try a 2e3 on a bike engine to be different ;)

TT

[mark]

Bike carbs and megajolt :D

I would definately prefer throttle bodies and megasquirt once i go zetec, but as spud says bike carbs and megajolt is much cheaper and easier to do if you dont mind it being a little thirsty. I ran a big power 300zx tt for a year that only did 8/12mpg :eek: so that doesnt bother me.

Thats why its so popular, its a good point about power outputs by adrian though would be nice to see what result bike carbs will have on various engines especially a humble 1.8cvh (thats what im using)

thb i will be happy if it achieves 100bhp any more is just a bonus :)

That will do for a while until the zetec conversion next winter

[spud69]

I'm sick of pestering Handy:

SO,,,Mark get on with your car instead of posting.......;)

I'm not going to Teesside track day with the only Haynes

[mark]

I'm sick of pestering Handy:

SO,,,Mark get on with your car instead of posting.......;)

I'm not going to Teesside track day with the only Haynes

Some of us have to work for a living you know ;)

Not just tinkering with sports cars and making top secret body work!

Well i say "work" if sitting in the office browsing the internet counts :D

Dont worry im doing my best to get my car there too

[spud69]

:D :D :p :D

[HandyAndy]

Dont worry im doing my best to get my car there too

so am I :eek: :eek: :D

Mark.... thanks for the valve you dropped off last night :cool:

cheers
andy

[kevpr]

I'll be running a set of R1 throttle bodies with megasquirt on the redtop.

[Davey]

Any reason for sequential? Do you have a cam phase sensor?

TT

Sequential because when its properly set up it works really well, cam phase sensor, hmmm, not sure to be honest but I'm sure if there isn't one I can come up with something:D .

D.

[flyerncle]

If Ronnie had his way it would be petrol/parrafin with magneto !!:p

[Bonzo]

If Ronnie had his way it would be petrol/parrafin with magneto !!:p

:D

What's wrong with steam ?? :o

I used to milk cows as a Saturday job when I was at school & used a Massey Ferguson T20 to take the Milk churns up the lane ....... Do you think I could ever remember to switch back over to petrol before I turned it off ...... Oh yes it was a hand crank jobby, none of that new fangled electric start :o

OMG ........ It's just dawned on me just how old I am !!??

[flyerncle]

Can beat you on that one of "being old,I restored the petrol/parrafin engine and mag a few years ago and in the 80's I rebuilt a 36 Daimler Light 15.

As for steam.....

[Bonzo]

Can beat you on that one of "being old,I restored the petrol/parrafin engine and mag a few years ago and in the 80's I rebuilt a 36 Daimler Light 15.

As for steam.....

Got to give you that one mate :)

I surrender ............ You are considerably older than me :D :D

[twinturbo]

Sequential because when its properly set up it works really well, cam phase sensor, hmmm, not sure to be honest but I'm sure if there isn't one I can come up with something:D .

D.

Just offers little tangiable advantage over batch fire, unless your planning to impliment a cylinder shutdown stratergy during light cruise.

For sequential to work correctly your going to need a cam sensor so that the ecu knows if the engine is on a intake. Zetecs and Later I4 based units should have a cam sensor.

If you can get it to work with little effort then go for it.

TT

[davidimurray]

As for me !! ..... Going to have a crack at running the Zetec with the stock ECU & re-worked inlet manifold. Mainly just for the challenge & in the full knowledge that this is probably not the best performance option

The stock ECU should be fine for getting the engine going. The only potential issue is that if you have significantly changed the intake/exhaust system, you may start to run lean. That should be easy enough to sort with an adjustable pressure regulator and a Lambda

Generally, you don't tend to see massive power increases between carbs and efi - what you see is better power across the range. I.e. because you have limited adjustment within the carb, you often have to sacrifice some areas of the power curve to give you max power. EFI lets you tune the whole of the power curve - the correct term i suppose to use is improved driveability - i.e. more power low down while maintaing top end performance.

I've been lucky enough to have had the chance in a previous job to spend a couple of years playing with DTA and Motec ECUs on a proper engine dyno. Interesting that about 90% of time was spent messsing with the setup rather than actually mapping. Electrical gremlins are a nightmare - cause more problems than anything else. Then you often found that the most basic setup was not done with care - sensor relations, throttle balancing etc. It always surprises how few people run a lambda sensor.I am going to try one of these units - http://wbo2.com/2y/default.htm and see how it goes.I have the problem of being spoilt and having had all the toys before that someone else had paid for!!!

[Bonzo]

Here David, that wideband lambda kit looks quite cool :)

I wonder if that would interface with the Megasquirt system ??

Being as I value your advice mate ..... Do you think that I will be aiming a bit high by doing the following....... 1.8 115bhp Zetec, 2 litre cams, 2 litre throttle body , 4 - 2 - 1 exhaust & modded inlet manifold .... All on the stock ecu

I have not got a clue if the Ford ECU is tweakable ( Somehow doubt it though )

[AshG]

ronnie it is pointless doing any of that on a stock ecu as it wont magically alter the map. i would just go with the megasquirt to be honest. you have done the hardest bit which was building the thing wiring it up shouldn't be any trouble

[dogwood]

Hey Ronnie.
Don't you just hate it when people dismiss wiring as the easy bit !!!:rolleyes:

[AshG]

easier than my bloody brakes were lol.

[davidimurray]

Being as I value your advice mate ..... Do you think that I will be aiming a bit high by doing the following....... 1.8 115bhp Zetec, 2 litre cams, 2 litre throttle body , 4 - 2 - 1 exhaust & modded inlet manifold .... All on the stock ecu

I have not got a clue if the Ford ECU is tweakable ( Somehow doubt it though )

Hi Ronnie

Apologises in advance if you know this lot already - hopefully it may be of interest to some of the members on here.Generally, most modern cars have either a narrow band lambda system and they are open loop. As open loop suggest - there is a defined fuel and ignition map in the ECU and the engine runs to those settings. A narrow band lambda system has a narrow band lambda sensor built into the exhaust to measure the air fuel ratio. In the event that there are small changes to the lean/rich mixture of the exhaust gases then the ECU can make a small adjustment to the fuel map to correct for this. (For info on lambda see - http://www.motec.com.au/aboutlambda/lambdaoverview/)

Sorry if I'm teaching people to suck eggs here - but I always find it useful to go back to basics. Engines require 3 things to work - enough air to fill the cylinder, enough fuel to mix with that air, a spark to ignite the mixture at the right time.

Now when you change the intake/exhaust sytem, you change the amount of air you can get into the cylinder - either becaue you have a better intake with less fricitional losses, or with a better exhaust you can expel more of the exhaust gas from the cylinder leaving more space for fresh air - or both. The efficiency of the intake system is typically now as the volumetric efficiency (VE). When you port a cylinder head, you are reducing the airflow losses to increase the VE

Now that you have more air in the cylinder, to maintain the same mixture of air and fuel (AFR or lambda) you now need more fuel. But how can you achieve that. The first method is to modify the map in the ECU - and this is what everyone thinks off when we say mapping. A 'fudged' method of doing this is to increase the fuel pressure - the map works by turning the injectors on for a period of time - the ECU is dumb and doesn't actually know how much fuel it is squirting in, only the time it is open for. So by turning the fuel pressure up you can inject more fuel across the whole map, but this still won't be ideal.

The last part of the equation is the spark, or more importantly the timing of that spark. Becuase it takes a certain amount of time for a given volume of the air fuel mix to burn, the change of mixture may require a change to the ignition timing.

To tune an engine properly you need to run through every load site and adjust the fuel, ignition then back to fuel until you make maximum power. The skill that good mappers have is that from their experience they can often predict where the engine is going and what settings will be required. There is also another question to ask here - do you tune for max power or driveablity. You would immediately think max power - but it is surprising how unnerving it can be to drive a car round a tight twisty circuit that tries to rip your eyeballs out everytime you touch the throttle. Surprising how much quicker a car can be when it is mapped throughout the range properly.

There are two dangerous things in engine terms - knock, effectively when you ignite the air fuel mix too early and try and push the piston down while it is still on the way up. The other is running lean - i.e. not having enough fule in the mixture. This leads to excessive gas temperatures and is why things like piston crowns melt.

So, in answer to your question Ronnie - you should be able to run your engine safely on the mods proposed without any great risk of damage. However, what you will probably find is that it will actually make your car less driveable and you may even make less power :eek: Personally, If you've got the money, I would go down the Aftermarket/Megasquirt route - but remember to include in your costs a rolling road session or two. For any EFI installation the quality of wiring is so so important. Use good connectors, with the correct cable and crimps. It's amazing how may people will tell you that there £1K+ ECU is a pile of rubbish and good for nothing - when you actually look at their installation you will find that they have thrown a few wires together. You wouldn't use a bit of garden hose, a jubilee clip and gaffa tape on your brakes - so why would you do the equivalent for your ECU.

If you don't want to go down the EFI route then carbs are a good alternative, you will still need to set them up, but once done properly they are self-metering so will adjust to the airflow going into the cylinder within reason. However, carbs tend to have a few distinct bands of operating points, e.g. idle, part throttle, wide open throttle - whereas efi will have settings say every 10% from closed to open throttle. The result - carbs can make almost as much max power as EFI, but they will suffer across the range - comes back to driveability again.

Right that's quite an essay for tonight - bed time for me - I got a car to build tomo!!:cool:

[Tatey]

I have to say David that was a really good read. You really seem to know your stuff there. :D

How many will a rolling road session normally cost to get carbs setup? I've seen the figure of £200+ floating around before.

[dogwood]

easier than my bloody brakes were lol.

Yea, I'll give you that one..:D

[flyerncle]

Cheeky bu**er Ronnie your birth certificate has symbols on it !!:p

Brake's sorted David ?

[gingea1pom]

I think Ash’s rolling road session was around £200, But get a recommendation. From my experience there are rolling road sessions and rolling road sessions if you know what I mean. I used to work for Middlesex Tuning Centre (over ten years ago). As has already be mentioned it is not just a case of all out power.

When we got Ash’s done I was amazed the time and effort that went into the set up, the needles where in and out about 5 times with a run up on the rollers after each adjustment then they did a few more tweaking the MJ.

He stopped one run because it was to lean. I will defiantly be running me car over to
Atspeed Racing. (http://www.atspeedracing.co.uk/)

Cheers Ginge

[dogwood]

Brake's sorted David ?

I think/hope so yea,
I'll see later today.
Defo think we are on the home straight..:o

[Bonzo]

I have to say David that was a really good read. You really seem to know your stuff there. :D


I'll second that :cool:

That has really been helpfull ........ Thanks David :)

[flyerncle]

Sounds good David,Good luck Ash,another one for the road so to speak. :cool:

[Land Locked]

Hey Ronnie.
Don't you just hate it when people dismiss wiring as the easy bit !!!:rolleyes:

But wiring is the easy bit. Bring your car and I'll show you;)

[twinturbo]

But wiring is the easy bit. Bring your car and I'll show you;)

Certainly is with any sierra engine!!!

TT

[flyerncle]

FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily or Found On Roadside Dead,wiring is the work of the devil.

[GraemeWebb]

FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily or Found On Roadside Dead,wiring is the work of the devil.

FORD - First On Rubbish Dump. Thats why I'm using a beemer donor.

Actualy I like Fords, the latest Mondeo is very good - had one at my last job.

[Davey]

If you think Fords are bad you should try working on Fiat or Iveco offerings (FIAT= Fix It Again Tomorrow (Tony)). Italian electrics are really dodgy!

D.