PDA

View Full Version : tuning options for 1.8cvh


steve8274
14th February 2010, 10:24 PM
what tuning options do i have with my cvh engine. i have read that there isnt much available. is this true and will my engine be quick enough left as standard
thanks
steve

Tatey
14th February 2010, 10:26 PM
There aren't many tuning options im afraid. However putting bike carbs on are supposed to give it a little bit more power. The car should still be plenty quick enough, and once you get used to the power you can just sell the engine and put in a nice 172bhp zetec :D.

Big Vern
14th February 2010, 11:51 PM
The best and probably only realistic option is to replace it with a Zetec. Keep the sump and starter and get the flywheel modified to take the CVH clutch.
I think the engine mounts might even be the same?
Tuning the CVH can be done but finachially it's like trying to crack a peanut with a sledge hammer.
It can be done - a friend of mine did - 170+BHP 1680 CVH in an Escort van! It was a pig to drive 'cos of the lairy cam, did 0mpg and cost over £2000 more than 10 years ago.....
For a tenth of that money you can pick up a good zetec and have 150+BHP.

HTH BV.

AshG
15th February 2010, 12:02 AM
it will have enough poke as standard. my 1600 pinto on bike carbs is no slouch although i have only driven it 3 times. go with what you have got to start with.

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 12:16 AM
I totally agree - Start off with what you have and with the CVH it's a relatively simple job to upgrade to the zetec later. Just not worth spending mony on the CVH

BV.

spud69
15th February 2010, 11:38 AM
All the tuning mods for the CVH were based on the 1600 escort version and there are very few mods for the 1.8 sierra version. The CVH is a good free revving engine and you'll have plenty of fun with it.

A good start would be to put it on bike carbs and megajolt, this will then bolt straight onto your zetec for later upgrade. All the parts you need for zetec upgrade are on the CVH, starter motor, flywheel, clutch, engine mounts, trigger wheel, will need a spigot bearing and make a new alternator bracket.

An easy upgrade for plenty of power.

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 02:49 PM
The CVH is only worth bothering with if the one you have is in good order and your not bothered about tuning it up! (this thread was about tuning options of the CVH was it not?)
The car will still be fun to drive with the CVH :) But in my experience it isn't long before you'll want something more and the CVH aint worth spending ANY money on - I wouldn't even give it an oil change!!!
If it were me I'd find a pre-95 Zetec and build the car with that from the get go as the zetec would be worth it.

Note: The CVH flywheel does not fit straight onto a Zetec as the flywheel bolt sizes are different and there's no trigger ring machined in the back of the CVH flywheel.

HTH BV.

spud69
15th February 2010, 02:55 PM
My Flywheel from the CVH fit straight on no problems, but yes you do have to relocate the trigger wheel onto the front pulley as it is on the CVH. Flywheel is also lighter than the Zetec one so no need to lighten it.

Mine is a phase 3 blacktop so maybe different to silvertop.

AndyH

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 03:01 PM
That's a concern Spud as the flywheel bolts for CVH are M10 fine thread and the Zetec ones are M11 fine thread! As for the flywheel weight the 1.8 zetec and CVH flywheels are only a couple of pounds different and I wouldn't want to lighten a cast flywheel anyway.....
Black top Deffo M11 threads for the flywheel hope you used the right ones:eek:

spud69
15th February 2010, 03:34 PM
Now you mention it Vern i did have them drilled out to 11mm (it was a long time ago), there's plenty over on the Locost site who have done exactly the same. 2.0L Zetec flywheel is 9.9kg and CVH is 6.5kg so a good weight saving to.

Anyway, Steve when i had my CVH in i bought a Haynes book called "rebuilding and tuning Ford's CVH engine". It's quite detailed and goes into all the options for cvh tuning, although it does concentrate more on the Escort and Orion version of the engines. If you like you can have it for postage as i have no use for it now.

Regards...AndyH

steve8274
15th February 2010, 04:31 PM
thanks guys. it does confirm what i thought. my engine runs fine at the moment so was reluctant to buy another at this time. plans for future!
i just didnt want to build car(which i havent even started yet. not long had donor) and be disappointed with my engine which is why i thought about tuning
i will stick with what i have for now.
hi Andy, when you say your book covers more of escort/orion version, does the book cover any about sierra. will it be helpful to me since i do intend to strip engine down.
as another point, where did you get your parts. does anyone know of any cheap places to buy parts for sierra cvh engine
thanks again
steve

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 09:22 PM
It's your choice of coarse, Steve, but the cost per HP gained when tuning the CVH is simply not worth it, there are better engines around! 1.8CVH as std = 90bhp Vs 135bhp for a std 2.0 Zetec. you can get a decent Zetec for £150 and you won't be able to do a stock rebuild on the CVH for that.
Like I said I wouldn't waste the price of a gallon of engine oil on it. Just use it to get the car built and on the road if you don't want to mess about with engines at this time.
Note also should you ever choose to sell the car at a later date it'll be worth more with a zetec than the CVH:)

steve8274
15th February 2010, 09:29 PM
where would i get a zetec for £150? and surely i would have to strip that down to check it out. maybe another £100 or so

Tatey
15th February 2010, 09:40 PM
Big Vern, i have to dissagree with you in respects to doing a complete rebuild of a CVH engine for £150. As I will be doing one for that exact budget :D. Heres a list of bits i'll be getting for it:

• Engine degreaser - £5
• Engine paint - £6
• Piston rings - £32.50
• Big end bearings - £17.50
• Head gasket set - £30.50
• Head skim - £20
• Oil - £20
• Main bearings
• Spark Plugs - £10
• Thermostat - £5
• Oil filter - £5
• Timing Belt - £10
• Sump Gasket - £8.46
• Core Plug Set - £7.50
• Air Filter - £10
• HT Leads - £12
• Water Pump - £10

Total = £150


As you can see it's a pretty extensive list, including getting the head skimmed. I am yet to decide if i need to buy main bearings as mine don't seem to need replacing, but it depends how much money i have at the time of rebuilding it all.

At the end of it i'll have a fully rebuilt 1.8 CVH engine, which i know will work since it's all be checked out and rebuilt by myself and should last some time. Where as if you spend £150 on an old zetec engine, you dont know the condition of it and you are still going to have to replace a lot of bits on it, so it will end up costing you more. I myself have been wanting to bin the CVH and buy a zetec but the financial implications of it outweighed the gains if you ask me, if you ask me theres more fun to be had in a slightly lower powered car when you are an inexperienced drive :D.

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 09:42 PM
There are loads of Zetec engined fords clogging up most dismantlers yards and there are always plenty on the 'bay. They're getting to be so cheap I wouldn't worry about checking it out just buy it, fit it, and if it blows up get another! you'd need to get through about dozen before tuning the CVH would come close in price. Sometimes even new crated zetecs come up - the last one went for £795 delivered.... A decent rebuild of the CVH will cost close to this and it's still only a CVH.
If your a fan of the CVH or just like a tuning challenge and have deep pockets then go ahead as such projects can be great fun ( the sort of thing I usually end up getting involved in) :0
But if you have deep pockets why would you be worried about the cost of a Zetec?
What ever you choose what's most important is to have fun:)


BV

twinturbo
15th February 2010, 10:22 PM
GBS have a load of Zetecs at that Price..

But I think Tatey is doing the right thing, starting small, learnign about the internals and usign what he has as a startign point.

TT

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 10:29 PM
Hi Tatey,
This is not a rant and not to be taken as such. I would just like to point a few things out mainly 'cos I've been down this road myself and it don't work out the cheapest in the end. (more of that later) It's still fun though just don't be under any illusions it the cheap route. But hey it's whatever you want to do.
No rebore and new pistons or reground crank? no oil pump either, hardly fully rebuilt....
Reground crank will likely cost £10 per journal and rebore and hone typically £60-£80. Last time I bought CVH pistons (late 1990's) they were £150+vat for O/S. and what did your mains cost at least £25 I would have thought for cheapo brg's Oil pump - cheapo £20
added to your rebuild cost I make that £70+60+25+20+let say £100 for pistons that's £175 + your £150 = £325 and we've not investigated the tuning costs yet.... £325 and it's still a 90bhp engine!
Vs £75 on a Zetec with no history - take a chance, to £150-£250 for a known good engine with history/money back guarentee.
Even the Duratecs are coming down to around the £250-350 mark!
As regards the finacial implications, scanning pistonheads and other kit car for sale sites for '7prices typically the '7 type cars with Zetec engines are fetching higher resale prices than those with non 2.0 Pinto's and CVH's. typically at the moment upto £1000 difference!

Building the Haynes roadster or any other for that matter is about what YOU want to do and about what you want to get out of it.....above all it should be fun and enjoyable. I already spent a silly amount of money on the engine (for a previous aborted project years ago) and could have had the same power from a zetec for a fraction of the cost....
There is always great fun to be had tuning an unpopular or difficult engine but the costs are high. For those on a budget the most cost effective solution currently IS the zetec...
Here's what I'd do: Invest in a Zetec engine now it would be the most sensible. (yes I know I don't usually apply good sence to my decisions) - even if I stripped it to check it out it's still a zetec and makes the end product more appealing both as a vehicle to drive (after all you want one!!!) and appealing to any potential purchaser if you decided to sell in the future.
That's what I'd do - except I'm build mine with MX-5 running gear and a very racey 2.1 Pinto (I've already spent £1500 on) that's been in the wardrove for 10 years....

BV.

Tatey
15th February 2010, 10:49 PM
BV, I in no way took what you said as a rant, it is just constructive criticism from a fellow builder.

Before i start buying any bits for my engine i'll be taking it to an engine refurb place to get the crank, camshaft, head and cylinders checked out. If it turns out it needs a lot of work then i'll be binning it and moving onto bigger and better things, most likely a zetec :p. However this will be my first engine stripdown/rebuild and I've always wanted to strip a potential non runner down (i don't know anything about the engine) and then rebuild it.

Also in terms of resale value, I entered this project with the mindset of building a car, meaning it will have everything the way I like it, meaning I wont be selling it. However, each to their own though, some people may just enjoy the building side of things and want to move onto bigger and better things e.g. the single seater.

twinturbo
15th February 2010, 11:05 PM
One other point to take into acount.

Unless you can find and verify an early Zetec, your goin gto be going for an enhanced emissions test during the IVA. To be sure of that not costing you a £90 Retest your going to want to put on a CAT and an exhaust to match it. Which is going to be a few quid up front.

With the verified CVH, it will jus thave to pass the basic emissions test. And then put the Zetec in afterwards.

TT

twinturbo
15th February 2010, 11:07 PM
Early Zetec non PATS Management is not cheap either, I have seen DExx 2.0 ECU's on their own go for 60 on ebay.


I am not a fan of the CVH, but it's a reasonable starting point.

TT

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 11:08 PM
Hi Tatey,
I'm glad to see your getting interested the engine and what makes it tick, well you don't actually want it to tick:) . You must excuse me I've spent most of my working life involved with the development of engines and I do rather forget that not everyone has such knowledge of engines.
The CVH engine would make a good rebuild project for a first timer. I cut my teeth on CVH's and Pinto's during my apprenticeship!
You are correct of course the car should be the way YOU want it I was merely pointing out that cars that are for sale with CVH engines command lower prices as the engine is seen as 'low rent'.
Steve started this tread with a view to tuning the CVH he had.
I just wanted to be sure he realised the cost of tuning it wasn't really justified. just like I can't justify the £1500+ I spent on my Pinto years ago, especially as I haven't used it yet:eek: .
As I think I said on the first page - use the CVH to get the car built then upgrade to a zetec or find a pre-95 engine there are plenty about.

BV.

twinturbo
15th February 2010, 11:12 PM
P.S....

I would not bother tuning, TBH I would not even put a set of Bike carbs or anything on one..

Myself, I would not even bother with the rebuild if it ran ok. My 2.9 will be test run and if it's ok just put in and given a service.

TT

Big Vern
15th February 2010, 11:34 PM
:D Good Man TT run it 'til it blows up then fit another!!! and if it's a pusrod 2.9Ford the it'll blow up:eek:
To be fair most of the Dev ones droped their unleaded valve seats though not as badly as the Pinto's :D did which is why they didn't unlead the 2.0Pinto:(
BV

twinturbo
15th February 2010, 11:58 PM
I don't expect the 2.9 to let go, I have had 13 sierras ..

4 with 2.9's
2 with twin turbo 2.9's
1 with a CVH
1 with a pinto
5 with DOHC

The 2.9's Were the best

Big Vern
16th February 2010, 12:09 AM
Like I said the Dev engines mainly dropped valve seats but Ford decided the potential warrenty risk was acceptable. Oh and don't let them overheat as No3 cylinder goes egg shaped and pinches the rings:mad: Apart from that they were good enough for Cosworth to base the 'BOB' on:) I prefer the DOHC though the 16 valve ones in the scorpio's:D though even they liked munching there timing chains when the plastic guides wore through:eek:
BV

twinturbo
16th February 2010, 12:18 AM
I had a bob Scorpio, it was quite good. But when one of the chains go then :eek:

I have a BOA Powered Sapphire, with the BOB cams and Vauxhall injectors they make a few extra HP's ;) . Our mondeo has the Duratec 2.5 24V , It did not feel as BIG as the 2.9's I think the inlet runner was not working correctly as if felt like it had no real torque low down..

Our Galaxy has the 2.3 16V.. It just does not have the feel of a 6...


I think V6's are just in my blod now ;)

TT

Big Vern
16th February 2010, 12:38 AM
Ahh I'd forgotten the 2.5 duratec. When our boss got one of the first ST24's as a company car, we had a seaky drive round the block in it ;) and it felt gutless compared to the 2.8mk2 granny I was driving around in at the time. I've since driven the 3.0 ST 220 and that's a much better car - felt like a V6 should! The galaxy is not the vehicle to enjoy the 2.3 engine in... and I always had a grin on my face when driving the RS2000 16v. Don't know why as it was a FWD:eek:
BV