Zetec and IVa

[Russ_16v]

Hey guys,

Hope you might be able to help, my build is going to be a fairly long term project, due to the limited anount of time i will have to spend on it, and because of this, iv been researching on here about engine options.

I am liking the (much tried) Zetec route. Its not the most exiting option, but im after reliablilty and a good shove of power which is why im prefering this over a Pinto.

But my question is this:

I have got the impression that a Pinto is a lot easier to get through the emissions on the IVA.

I am planning on going on a Q plate if this makes a difference, but what i would like to do is get the engine i will be keeping in the car, i dont really fancy spending all the time and effort fitting a Pinto, to then have it back in my garage swapping to a Zetec, as due to the time i will be spending it would take me a little while to do so.

So are Zetecs as hard as im thinking to pass the IVA?

I will be going with a pre 95 so no cat or ecu to worry about, so most probably the bike carb route will be taken, as it seems fairly well priced.

Would a bike carb'd Zetec have trouble with an IVA regarding emissions?

Many thanks in advance

[jasongray5]

it depends what year zetec engine you go for, if its a pre-august '95 engine, then emmissions are more or less a doddle. Post 95 and you will be needing all sorts of stuff like catalytic convertors and stuff.... i think

[Russ_16v]

it depends what year zetec engine you go for, if its a pre-august '95 engine, then emmissions are more or less a doddle. Post 95 and you will be needing all sorts of stuff like catalytic convertors and stuff.... i think



Yes, i will be going for a pre 95 engine

[AshG]

sorry to ruin your day but its pre 92 not 95. the only way you can get away with a 92-95 engine on pre 92 emissions limits (CO3.5% HC1200ppm) is if you can prove the car that it come out of, didnt come with a cat. for this you will either need evidence in the form of a recognised publication or a letter from ford tech

[Russ_16v]

ok,so if its a 92-95 engine, does that mean im going to have a nightmare with emissions?

[AshG]

your fine as long as you can prove that the car it come out of didnt have a cat.

[Russ_16v]

Ok mate thanks, and if it has come out of a cat equipped car, then i will have to fit a cat im guessing?

[AshG]

you got it.

download the iva manual its in section 02B page 8 of 14

[Russ_16v]

Iv just been reading it matey thank you :)

Did they make a 2.0 Zetec before 92? im pretty sure they didnt (RS2000 exl)

[twinturbo]

There is no requirement at all to have a CAT fitted.

Just a requirement to pass the emissions test at that level.

But that's very difficult without a CAT .

TT

[Russ_16v]

There is no requirement at all to have a CAT fitted.

Just a requirement to pass the emissions test at that level.

But that's very difficult without a CAT .

TT


Thank you for clearing that up guys, so im guessing that is why most start off with Pinto's / CVH's?

[twinturbo]

It's one reason,

It's also what comes with the donor

And the engine management can be easily reused without worring about the PATS security system

TT

[spud69]

Russ,

Just get a 1.8cvh 1992 Sierra through IVA on easy emissions then it's an easy exchange up to a 2.0l Zetec on bike carbs.........175bhp for easy dosh.

I've had a drink but that's the easy and cheapest way to mega-power....:D

[AshG]

or quite simply you could just put a cat on it! there are some pretty nice looking stainless sports ones that you can get for round the £120 mark

must be the first person in the world to suggest that on a kitcar site :D

[Russ_16v]

Thats just it Spud, its going to take me a while, and doing an engine change will end up taking me ages, so id rather try to get it through with the engine its going to stay with if its possible?

[twinturbo]

Make sure the CAT is E-Approved though or you could be in for a BIG Fine.

If I were putting a post 92 engine in from a cat doner then I would just fit a cat and leave it there.

TT

[Russ_16v]

well i work for a VW dealer so i have the use of emissions equipmemnt, so i can always have a play around and see how i get on

[Big Vern]

Hi Ash,
So this has changed since the IVA was introduced then, as the copy I have says if the 'computer' doesn't list your make of car or near equivelent (like MX-5 and eunos roadster) then it had to be taken as non cat unless engine proven to be an August '95 or later. ie a type of engine not introduced before August '95.
BV

[HandyAndy]

Hi Russ,

as Spud has said, use an engine from a donor car, whatever engine you get , use it, then to change an engine is quite easy really, more so if you use a TYPE 9 gearbox as the zetec will bolt straight to it with a little mod, if you use a cvh for the iva then you have most parts ready for the swap to a zetec....flywheel, starter motor etc etc.......

I,ll stick my neck out here & say if you have all the parts ready...new engine etc then it,d be a weekends work to swap em over ;)

Also, you,ll be quite surprised how "quick " the Roadster will be even when using a cvh / pinto / twinky ( dohc ), lets say you have a cvh engine with approx 80hp..... & a Roadster that only weighs approx 500 to 550 kgs .... thats quite a nice power to weight ratio :D

sorry if i,m messing up your plans :o

cheers
andy

[Russ_16v]

Lol thanks Andy (did you get my pm?)

Its not messing up my plan, so you guys think its going to be easier to fit a Pinto/CVH, get through the IVA then swap to a Zetec, than fit a Zetec, and try to get it through the emissions?

Did they make a pre 92 2.0 Zetec?

[HandyAndy]

Lol thanks Andy (did you get my pm?)

Its not messing up my plan, so you guys think its going to be easier to fit a Pinto/CVH, get through the IVA then swap to a Zetec, than fit a Zetec, and try to get it through the emissions?

Did they make a pre 92 2.0 Zetec?

yes got your pm, will reply shortly, sorry, had busy day at Saturn & spent a few hours working on my car :cool:

not trying to "tell" you what to do but the easiest route for me personally , i,m using my engine from my donor ( 1.8 cvh ) from a car that i only paid £150 for with tax & test, BUT that car also gave me ALL the donor parts i needed, I have the log book in my name & the docs match the engine number etc so when IVA time comes for me :rolleyes: :D I can prove the age of the engine etc & helps to ensure a smooth process of the paperwork side of things & the emissions that my car will be tested on.........

If my engine "goes pop" once on the road etc its an easy swap to the zetec...cvh & zetec have the exhaust on the same side :) ..same engine mounts , use the flywheel & starter from cvh engine & hey presto = easy engine swap .

sorry to go on

cheers
andy

[Russ_16v]

Ah thats fine mate, just wanted to make sure you gt it, iv been having some laptop trouble lol


Ok, that makes sense, i may have to take a week off week once its finished and carry out the swap, do you change the engine number on the reg doc, or not bother? Id like to do everything properly.

I like the idea of an easy swap, engines dont bother me, nor do electrics, ( have just finished fitting Minker management to my mates Sierra xr4x4 twin turbo with our own home made loom) so the swap doesnt worry me, that may be the way to go.

[Big Vern]

In my copy of IVA manual dated 27/03/2009 Page 8 of 13 in section Metered emissions 02B
The flow chart shows:
CAT1
is it a passenger car? = yes
vehicle effective date between 1/8/92 & 31/7/95? = yes
can you find an exact match in the analyser data base or the In-service Emissions book? = NO - because the haynes roadster isn't in the book!
Carry out a NON CAT test CO<=3.5% HC<= 1200ppm

I would call that a non cat test for any haynes roadster with an engine that was pre'95 so long as engine age could be proved - which should be no problem - just contact the engine manufacturer and they should be able to provide a letter confirming date.

HTH BV.

PS this is exactly the same flow chart as the one in my old SVA manual.

[Russ_16v]

In my copy of IVA manual dated 27/03/2009 Page 8 of 13 in section Metered emissions 02B
The flow chart shows:
CAT1
is it a passenger car? = yes
vehicle effective date between 1/8/92 & 31/7/95? = yes
can you find an exact match in the analyser data base or the In-service Emissions book? = NO - because the haynes roadster isn't in the book!
Carry out a NON CAT test CO<=3.5% HC<= 1200ppm

I would call that a non cat test for any haynes roadster with an engine that was pre'95 so long as engine age could be proved - which should be no problem - just contact the engine manufacturer and they should be able to provide a letter confirming date.

HTH BV.

Now this is very interesting, so if i could prove the date of a Zetec, then as long as its before 95 it 'should' be on the non cat basis...

[Russ_16v]

one thing, whats the 'vehicle effective date' mean?

[twinturbo]

( have just finished fitting Minker management to my mates Sierra xr4x4 twin turbo with our own home made loom) so the swap doesnt worry me, that may be the way to go.

Who's car was that then?

The Minker Management was a Zytec ECU.

TT

[HandyAndy]

like for any engine change in any car,,,,,,,,,,,,,

If you change the engine after a car has been registered you have to inform DVLA of the new engine number as this then confirms if you stay in the same "road tax " class..... i,ll explain.....

hypothetical scenario....
if you had a car on the road that lets say had a 1300 cc engine & you change it to a 2.0ltr zetec then you must inform the dvla to ensure their records are kept up to date & you would be then charged the appropriate road tax for your new engine capacity,

build your car, enjoy it for a while ( 6 to 12 months), get used to driving a "7" style car , then think about upgrading your engine, ;)

cheers
andy

[Russ_16v]

Who's car was that then?

The Minker Management was a Zytec ECU.

TT

Correct, his name is Stu, he is a member of the XR club, not regular though, its a lovely car, im redoing the loom soon, its been rebuilt by Alan Jeffries, big valve heads, sodium valves, lower comp bottom end, made 286 bhp and 270 lb ft torque with very conservative timing, just under 1 bar of boost, a restrictive exhaust and TT225 intercooler, we are hoping for over 300/300 once we have made a few more adjustments, i have just got a new cooler for it today actually

like for any engine change in any car,,,,,,,,,,,,,

If you change the engine after a car has been registered you have to inform DVLA of the new engine number as this then confirms if you stay in the same "road tax " class..... i,ll explain.....

hypothetical scenario....
if you had a car on the road that lets say had a 1300 cc engine & you change it to a 2.0ltr zetec then you must inform the dvla to ensure their records are kept up to date & you would be then charged the appropriate road tax for your new engine capacity,

build your car, enjoy it for a while ( 6 to 12 months), get used to driving a "7" style car , then think about upgrading your engine, ;)

cheers
andy

Cheers Andy thats what i thought :)

[twinturbo]

Has alan managed to get the software for the Zytec to work on anything? I haev a 286 pc in the garage that may run it if he still has it :D

I am guessing it's the ECU from the Minker Spec estate that TurboShed Bought and sold the engine to Snoopaloopa...



That Cooler Definatly needs BINNNED!!!!

Do you know Dave Howard? He has good links to Geoff Kershaw, Dave has also been playing with Chineese GTxxxx Replcia turbos on his Minker.

TT

[Big Vern]

Hi Russ,
The flow chart is the same as the old SVA chart and plenty of people have got pre'95 engines through without a cat. Just need to check that the manual hasn't been updated but I havn't heard about any updates.
Contact Ford HQ with the donor Vin number and engine number and they should be able to write back confirming age of the engine. That should be accepted as proof of age of engine by DVLA/VOSA.

HTH BV.

[Russ_16v]

Has alan managed to get the software for the Zytec to work on anything? I haev a 286 pc in the garage that may run it if he still has it :D

I am guessing it's the ECU from the Minker Spec estate that TurboShed Bought and sold the engine to Snoopaloopa...



That Cooler Definatly needs BINNNED!!!!

Do you know Dave Howard? He has good links to Geoff Kershaw, Dave has also been playing with Chineese GTxxxx Replcia turbos on his Minker.

TT

from memory yup im pretty sure its Snoops old ECU, came with a loom, injectors, dizzy,coil etc.

I swear the oil cooler we have to fit on it is bigger than the intercooler lol, will be sorted :D

Apparently he does have the software but refuses to lend it out to anyone :(

Though my local RR guy used to play with Zytecs (he used ti tune turbo jag racers)

[Russ_16v]

Hi Russ,
The flow chart is the same as the old SVA chart and plenty of people have got pre'95 engines through without a cat. Just need to check that the manual hasn't been updated but I havn't heard about any updates.
Contact Ford HQ with the donor Vin number and engine number and they should be able to write back confirming age of the engine. That should be accepted as proof of age of engine by DVLA/VOSA.

HTH BV.

Hmm, need to find out somehow if thats still ok mate, as if i can fit the Zetec it will be a big help!

Thanks matey :)

[Big Vern]

Hi Russ,
Since the Andy's at Saturn have a hot line on all things IVA I guess this would be a good way to find out and confirm this is still the case.

BV.

[AshG]

i can see what you are saying vern. the way i was seeing it that they looked up the car that the engine come from rather than the car its presented in.

thinking about it i may have been wrong in my interpretation of the text.

although it doesn't make any difference to me as i have passed iva it may be worth ringing vosa to clarify.

for once this is really something i want to be wrong about :D

[deezee]

Whats the Ford HQ address? I can't find any suitable address for sending an engine number request to!

[twinturbo]

although it doesn't make any difference to me as i have passed iva

oooooohhhh so now you have passed you don't care you don't care about us poor mortal folke, :rolleyes:

TT

[AshG]

nah your all just dirt on my boot now :D

only said it to get a reaction :D

being serious though. i want to see as many roadsters as possible on the road and will do my best to help that happen.

[Russ_16v]

one thing, whats the 'vehicle effective date' mean?

Sorry to sound stupid, but can anyone tell me what this means?

[spud69]

Hi Russ,
Since the Andy's at Saturn have a hot line on all things IVA I guess this would be a good way to find out and confirm this is still the case.

BV.

We don't have a hot line....;) but if we can build good relations with these people then it benefits us all. He is actually very for the Haynes Roadster concept as he rightly believes that the roadster Kit Car industry is becoming very expensive, especially for turn key cars, and thinks that the Haynes brings the kit car building philosophy back to where it should be. And that the Haynes is a bloody good and well designed car.....:)

I've attached the relevant page from the IVA manual and Ash is completely correct in that for age of engine between August 92 and July 95 if there is evidence that the car was not fitted with cat from new then the pre-cat tests apply, ie CO <=3.5% and HC <=1200ppm

I'm sure Ash still cares, just like we all do.......:p

[Russ_16v]

That makes sense, thanks guys!

Though i think im out of luck with the Zetec idea, as i cant think of any Ford that had a Zetec, but didnt have a cat?

[Big Vern]

Hi Andy,
Thats the chart I have so you should be ok as the Haynes Roadster is not on the Analyser data base or In-service manual so they can have no exact match for exhaust emissions. (the database is from the type approval specs for each mass produced vehicle when approved-data submitted by OEMs.)
As the haynes roadster won't be there the test will default to non cat emissions.:D

Russ,
The vehicle effective date in the case of the haynes roadster is the date of the engine used. (Why they're so fussy about proff of the engines age).You could use a '93 Ford Ranger engine is you wanted and as there's no EU emissions spec for it, it would have to go non cat.:D

The above is why the correct details on your log book are needed as the MOT test is based on the vehicle description in the log book.

I think some people have got confused thinking the vehicle description for the emissions test is for the engines donor vehicle not the vehicle being presented for test.
This chart is the same one as the SVA one and plenty of people got pre '95 engines through without cats.

HTH BV.:)

PS sorry Andy just re read your post. Yes if the donor cars engine had not cat the in it would also go through on non cat test.
Didn't mean to get you into hot water over the link to IVA bloke but your contact there would be a good way of checking on this.:o

[Russ_16v]

Brill, thanks mate that makes sense, it can get so confusing!

Im thinking that a CVH/Pinto route still seems to be the easiest route, as i will end up with a Zetec i think

[HandyAndy]

Im thinking that a CVH/Pinto route still seems to be the easiest route, as i will end up with a Zetec i think

if you will go to Zetec eventually, be aware that the exhaust on a pinto is on the drivers side, but the cvh & zetec are both on the passenger side, if poss go with a cvh as when you fit a zetec you,ll have the exhaust on the same side & won,t need to cut more holes in the side panel of the body ;) :)

hth.

cheers
andy

[Russ_16v]

Cheers Andy, CVH it is then! :)

Unless i can wangle saying an early Zetec came in a non cat car which i think is pretty much impossible!