Camber Adjuster Failure Warning!!!

[AshG]

Had a rather nasty failure on the car today. The one of the quick camber adjusters on the front suspension decided to catastrophically fail and allow the top wishbone to detach from the hub.

My friend chris was driving at the time luckily he noticed that it had failed and stopped before the front wheel parted company with the car.

i would seriously advise you to think about changing them for stronger items if they are on your car or revert back to the book wishbone design with the fixed threaded tube

this is the adjuster in question

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/images/DAR013.JPG

and this is the failed one.

http://www.haynesroadster.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/camberfail.JPG

yes your not seeing things the bolt head as completely come off

[spud69]

Bloody Nora Ash,

We are selling the same ones and yes the Alloy does look very light but you would expect that they have been tested as fit for purpose.

Will be removing them from sale forthwith.

Only Flynercle has bought these to date, if you are reading this. If not then we shall see you on Saturday.

Cheers Ash.....AndyH

[dogwood]

It seems to me Ash,
if you didn't have bad luck you would'nt have any luck at all.

So I can guess what you'll be up to over the weekend.
Still I suppose it's better it shows up now and not when you are giving it a spanking

[AshG]

well my dilemma now is do i remake new ones in steel and hope they are strong enough or make a whole new set of upper wishbones front and back to the standard book design without the quick adjuster?

[Janne E]

I have them in the front but now I got to get some in steel.
Wonder what Rally Design have to say about this????

Janne

[Davey]

Personally I'd say go for the book design. Why bother with quick adjusters anyway, it only takes a few minutes to knock out the top ball joint and screw it in or out a turn but with about 5-6mm of steel around the threads its unlikely to fall apart.

D.

[frankie boy]

well my dilemma now is do i remake new ones in steel and hope they are strong enough or make a whole new set of upper wishbones front and back to the standard book design without the quick adjuster?

Thats made me think. As i have made them back and front on my new build.
Thay must have sold hundreds of them so im thinking how many have failed.

If i remember right you had cut them to suite. Do you think this may have had something to do with it?

[dogwood]

.
Wonder what Rally Design have to say about this????
Janne

Good point Janne..

I suppose steel will be stronger,
but will you always be wondering..:confused:

Think if it was me, I would make a set of steel ones for now.
but make a new set of bones before I did any engine mods....:rolleyes:

[Spikehaus]

How did you form the hole for the camber adjuster sleeve to sit in? Did you precision bore it out on the lathe for snug fit, like the ones I machined for Bonzo, or did they have any slack or play that may cause addition stress point? I opted out of the camber adjusters at an early stage.

Looks like you got away with a potential accident and flagged up a warning for us all.

[Bonzo]

That don't look too clever ..... Imagine if that had happened in a high speed corner :eek:

I got two pairs of those .... Probably going to go with the book spec adjusters now ;)

If I am to be honest .... Wasn't quite happy with mine, they are a very loose fit on the the drag links I have ( Thread wise that is ) :confused:

Cheers for the heads up Ash.

[mark]

Thats shocking :eek:

I must admit i liked the idea when i first saw them but not the design (didnt look man enough) so havnt bothered with them personally

As already mentioned rally design need to know about this before somebody gets killed. They are a large well known company so there must be hundreds of cars out there with the same adjusters on.

[AshG]

the sleeve it went into was bored out on the lathe then finished to size with a proper finishing reamer so they were as perfect as perfect could be

[fabbyglass]

I would say it's the wrong grade of ali used there rather than them being too flimsy. You should see the adjusters used on Van Diemen's now they are thin but the key is in the grade of ali used.

Has anyone bothered to crack open a ball joint?...Now that's scary as bugger all holding them together really yet these type of cars rely on them to hold hubs/brakes/wheels on.

[fabbyglass]

The biggest joke on kit cars is using Sierra uprights with a mushroom thing stuffed in the top with only a pinch bolt to hold it in...even the Sierra had additional means to keep the strut in place.

[Spikehaus]

Maybe we should design a new fabricated front upright? I think I saw a thread with some designs for this a few weeks ago. Maybe I could use this is my CAD project at school.

[flyerncle]

Food for thought gents,I have them both ends. Bu88er. !:eek:

Rally Design need to know and what are their thoughts,fit for the purpose and liability and all that before someone is hurt.

[flyerncle]

I think it could be solved easily and the cause is pobably our own fault,if the adjuster is in tension due to the tube being too long when tightened it will fail due to the weakest point being the nut end.

Solution.(possibly) the tube should be the exact length to hold the adjuster in compression, or weld a suitable washer at the outside end to prevent it detaching from the arm.
Another alternative is to remake the tube with an internal step at wheel end to stop it pulling through.

It made sense to me at silly o'clock this morning and I hope it does to others.

Cheers All

[AshG]

the tube was the exact length so that wont cure the problem and looking at the force to make that bit of ali break a washer wouldn't stand a chance. simple fact is that they are made out of the wrong material and should be abandoned.

its not worth killing yourself to save a couple of grams

[davidimurray]

Having just got back from holiday this morning I was quite alarmed to read about this failure. I've got a set of these adjusters I am planning to use when I make my own wishbones in the next couple of weeks. Interestingly there has been some discussion on this on the 'other forum' including a good suggestion by Ash for an alternative design (which I plan to use) to provide a safeguard in the event of failure - for more info see -
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=132143&page=4

[Bonzo]

I was just going to have a re-read of the thread that Ash posted on LCB & now it has gone :confused: :confused:

Reading it this morning !!??

I must say .... Was absolutely GOBSMACKED to note that one particular post lashed out at Ash & accused him of scare-mongering :mad:

Certainly made me think twice about using the quick adjusters without making provision for some kind of failsafe device ;)

[Bonzo]

Been having another look

It would appear that another thread has been merged with the original topic :rolleyes:

End result .... Total loss of all of the original posts in Ash's thread :confused:

Here's what's left of it

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=132551&page=1


EDIT

All fixed now .... Thankfully it was as a result of an admin error :)

Definately some serious food for thought there ;)

[dogwood]

I must say .... Was absolutely GOBSMACKED to note that one particular post lashed out at Ash & accused him of scare-mongering :mad:


Yes I see that as well.
Was tempted to reply. But thought better of it.:mad:
Bet it would have been a different story if it was his adjusters that had gone.

One failure is too much on something as important as the thing that holds the wheel on.........:mad:

[fabbyglass]

Blimey what a cafuffle Ash's adjuster has caused..glad you are ok though dude.

Idea or a copy of an old idea for you:
Instead of the adjuster being made from hex bar use round and turn it down so it has a shoulder then drill a hole in the end like a box spanner...You can't really get a spaniard on the hex anyway as it's too tight in the end of the wishbone.
Before any one shouts and says pants just take a look at a Van Dieman single seater...nowt is ever really new don't yer know and it's where the idea for the GTS adjusters came from as I just happened to have a Van Dieman sat in my workshop at the time...and was cheaper to make them from hex bar than fanny about with round then drill the end:D

[flyerncle]

How on earth can telling people of a failure be scare mongering.
Dont think I will be bothering with LCB. :rolleyes:

[fabbyglass]

How on earth can telling people of a failure be scare mongering.
Dont think I will be bothering with LCB. :rolleyes:

I agree on that matey and problem is the bloody internet is full of "billy no mates" types who do nowt but rubbish everything, they are brave online but face to face are usually complete and utter knobheads.. as for me? I'm just a cock but I can own up to it:confused:

[Bonzo]

Yes I see that as well.
Was tempted to reply. But thought better of it.

Very wise David .... I am afraid it would just fall on to deaf ears !!??

Once you have sorted the wheat from the chaff, there is some good information in that thead.

From my own point of view, that of your average joe " Home builder "

I am not in the slightest bit interested in the science or mathematics of any given material.
Dare say, if I was so inclined .... I too could trawl the net & find some maths or theory , copy this infomation & post it in a thread to make me look smarter than you average bear.

The failure of the camber adjuster on Ash's car interests me greatly .... It proves that this particular component has the potential to fail .... The most disturbing aspect of all this is the fact that things could have ended with a devestating fatality :eek:

Not too convinced by the supposed stress test .... Heath Robbinson to say the least, just about the least scientific test I have ever seen .... If not tested to destruction & accurate measurements taken, any such test is meaningless !!??

In light of recent events, I have decided to abandon the use of the quick adjusters .... Also concerned that mine were bought about the same as the one that failed & at this stage, a faulty batch cannot be ruled out !!

Thumbs up for Ash's revised wishbone boss with built in failsafe .... Alas I do not have the tooling to make these but would be interested in buying them if they became commercially available :) :)

Well that's my little rant over .... Safe motoring guys :cool:

[dogwood]

Very wise David .... I am afraid it would just fall on to deaf ears !!??

Once you have sorted the wheat from the chaff, there is some good information in that thead.

From my own point of view, that of your average joe " Home builder "

I am not in the slightest bit interested in the science or mathematics of any given material.
Dare say, if I was so inclined .... I too could trawl the net & find some maths or theory , copy this infomation & post it in a thread to make me look smarter than you average bear.

The failure of the camber adjuster on Ash's car interests me greatly .... It proves that this particular component has the potential to fail .... The most disturbing aspect of all this is the fact that things could have ended with a devestating fatality

Not too convinced by the supposed stress test .... Heath Robbinson to say the least, just about the least scientific test I have ever seen .... If not tested to destruction & accurate measurements taken, any such test is meaningless !!??

In light of recent events, I have decided to abandon the use of the quick adjusters .... Also concerned that mine were bought about the same as the one that failed & at this stage, a faulty batch cannot be ruled out !!

Thumbs up for Ash's revised wishbone boss with built in failsafe .... Alas I do not have the tooling to make these but would be interested in buying them if they became commercially available :) :)

Well that's my little rant over .... Safe motoring guys

Very well put Ronnie...
I would have just told them to F*****f........:cool:

[flyerncle]

Totally agree with 99% of your statement Fabby (defo not the cock bit).

[davidimurray]

I think you people have to be careful when they say these parts are likely to fail - what has been shown is that they may fail in this application on the Haynes roadster. Rally design sell a camber adjuster to suit the locost - that is where it is classified - it does not state anywhere that it is suitable for any other car. As a result - by using it on any other car you could be going outside the original design intent - in this case it is upto the person using them to assess whether they are suitable for this application.

Thinking about the design of the haynes wishbones compared to the locost, the angle will have a major difference on the loads. Consider a locost and roadster at their normal ride height with the wishbones parallel. Imagine hitting a bump, an upward force is applied (this could be many G). In the locost design, with the tube horizontal, resolving the forces, the adjuster would see a vertical load. In the Haynes design, resolving the forces would give an upward load, but also a horizontal component that would be trying to pull the adjuster out. As the wishbone travels through an arc, both designs will see a horizontal and vertical load but the haynes design will be seeing a greater component of force trying to pull the adjuster out than the locost design.

Hopefully that makes some sense - the point I am trying to make is that by using these parts outside their original design intent should not result in a backlash against various manufacturers.

In terms of a solution I intend to make a copy of the adjusters from EN24T steel as I have some kicking around. If I had had some I would probably have gone for 7075 T6 aluminium if it wasn't so expensive.

[davidimurray]

As a further bit of interest for this - I've done a graph comparing the bump loads that the Locost and Haynes sees. The actual values don't really matter, but i've taken a 35kg unsprung mass combined with a 5g bumpload. As you can see from the graph - both designs see the same loads - but becuase of the angle that the camber adjuster is at in the Haynes design - the load curve is shifted along - meaning that the ulitmate load seen by the Haynes trying to pull the adjuster out is 17% greater than that on the locost.

[AshG]

david you come to exactly the same conclusion as me. i think its safe to say the RD rd camber adjusters are not suitable for the Haynes Roadster suspension design.

[Bonzo]

Well done David

A very nice bit of research work on your behalf :cool: :)

The infomation you have provided has made things a lot clearer in my mind & yes I agree, it would appear that the camber adjuster in question is probably not suited for use on the Roadster .

Thanks for taking the time to look into the matter mate :)

[gus]

So are you saying that the principal of the quick adjuster is a complete no go, or if the adjuster was made from a different material would it be suitable?

Any advice appreciated, as I have just made a set for a friend, who asked me to incorporate the RD adjuster. If they are not suitable, I would rather change them now.

Thanks

Gus

[Blade]

I've just read this thread and it is quite shocking to see what has happened to ash's adjuster(happy NOT to hear about an accident) but could it be that it was just a duff adjuster , I've used this sort of set-up before on my rally cars on tarmac and in the forest and never had one fail on me, also how many other people are using them with no problems at all ? Just a thought.

[flyerncle]

Change of material for the adjuster and design of tube it sits in to provide a stop to prevent it coming out and thankfully this has been brought to the attention of all without a major disaster and loss to Ash.

[fabbyglass]

Could it be the angle of danglement of the bush on the wishbone playing silly beggars with the adjuster? Reason I ask is the GTS jobs were done 6 or 7 years ago with that bush straight as per the locost, I did the first GTS car(long story) and farted about for hours and couldn't see why folk angled that bush when using sierra uprights as the track rod end is supposed to work at nutty angles. And to me it kinda looked wrong as for working out suspension geometry you use the centres of pivots and ball joints and with the angle bush it looked like it would bend.....Just my views on it by the way and there are lots out there being used and used hard on race tracks with no drama.

[davidimurray]

The principle of the adjuster is perfectly sound - the issue here would seem to be the material strength related to our wishbone designs and the loads seen.

My calculation is a very simplified analysis of the situation as it does not consider the actual wishbone swept geometry.For example if the the roadster wishbones travel through 25 degrees and the locost only travel through 20 degrees then the difference in loads will be much greater.

One other possible thought for construction is that by boring the bosses before welding them - the holes may become oval.

Without doing calcs I couldn't say for sure - but I suspect a set in mild steel would do the job. I plan to make my own from EN24T - not becuase of the strength - but due to its good performance in cyclic loading conditions - and beause I have some lying around;) The important area to be concerened about is the head and the surface area as this is now taking the load. Put another way we know the thread will take the load as it does in a standard wishbone. You need to be careful with the transition between the shank of the adjuster of the head as any sharp edges will be stress raisers that could start a failure. Ideally you will be looking for something like a 2mm+ radius on both the adjuster and the matching boss.

I hope that is some help - sorry I can't be more specific with a definite answeras to design and material.