St170 fuel injection on a budget project.
 

St170 fuel injection on a budget project.

I thought I would start a thread on getting an St170 engine to run in a kitcar using its own ecu.

Yes I know you can stick bike carbs on it ect but you wont do it as cheap as this and get the same level of emissions imho.

Budget so far £45 BUT I DONT HAVE THE ENGINE YET

1hr's Work. Can I turn the immobilizer (Pat's) on and off.....Answer YES

http://youtu.be/4UMyy6HXvQ4

A good start but lots and lots of work to do.

I am also on the scroundge :D for any st170 engine sensors that you guys havnt used on the bike carb or megasquirt convertions.

I am looking for

fuel rail pressure switches
Inlet manifold runner controle modual ( even faulty )
Maf
knock sensor

ect

If I get some donations to keep the project cost low I may even do a Full "how to"

:)

Have you actualy disabled the PATS?

TT

That depends on what you mean by disabling it.........

What you see is me turning the immobilizer on and off. Once off or disabled it will not re-activate untill the power (ignition) is turned of.

I am doing this on my dinning table let alone in a car.Just j10 wires to the ecu.

I do not have the software or hardware to permanently disable or "bypass" the Immobilizer but I dont need to as long as I have a matching chip with the ecu.

This is the most modern and advanced Ford ecu that I have tried upto date.
this is a 2003 Visteon black oak st170 ecu that superceeds the EEC ecu's.

I am a big fan of the Oem ecu, Plug and play with no mapping needed but it can be chiped or even mapped via the Obd2 port or a port on the ecu.

It makes a lot of sense to use the ecu if you can get it all sussed out. Painless in the states have been doing this stand alone stuff using all the original kit for years. http://www.painlesswiring.com/webcatalog/featured.php
have a quick flick through their products, they have all bases covered .

Bob

st170 manifolds dont fit other zetecs like people say on the net the port postions are way off trust me i know and manifold header parts fetch a packet as i think people are buying them up for itb conversions thinking thay bolt stright up
the rest of the manifold is big and may not fit under the hood of some kits
then there is the odd fuel way the fuel pressure is regulated eletronicly, veriable intake tracts and you will still need to remap to suit exhaust changes
my 10p on st170 all seems too much of a headache for me

im going to make a alloy version of mine later down the line

i am intersted in the st170's knock sensors info for my megasquirt system tho:D

Yeh the ports are around 10mm higher on the st.

The fuel pump should be better for carb upgrades as no return will be needed.

The exhaust is a 4-2-1 design and I know a few have reworked it to fit a kit so no adjusting will be needed.

Yes there is some working out todo, but I enjoy the engine managment side of things.

It will run better all round than any megasquirt can be tuned to do.

there are some squirted 2l zetecs pushing over 190bhp on all std internals now :D

They must be generous rollers as the big tuners only get 165ish with out cams and headwork. I would still question if it will idle like factory and meet an age related emmisions test.

At what price for Ms ? Mtec want £600 for there Ms with a bit of time on the rollers. I havnt looked at uk prices of a proper Ms for a while.

I have installed Omex, Ae, Dta ect on engines, mine and others inclueding a guy that builds busa engines for radical.
They all start at that sort of money PLUS time on the rollers.
I know of a few people that have had multi sessions on the rollers each came away with max power from the start but keep going back to tweek it for around town.

The point of this post is best power for a budget. My ecu cost less than the going rate of an edis4, £29.99 and wont need time on the rollers.

i totaly understand the cheapness and possible fun of what your doing but in my opinion it just needs to be ajustable to suit inlet and exhaust changes needed to fit into a 7 kit also i looked into useing a st170 motor but there is to much in the way of twiddley bits making it an over copmlicated install and i would of had to buy a complete car to get everyting i would need

all boils back to the age old well troden zetec stripped back and aftermarket ecu, exhaust and some form of good inlet

my friend has a sylva striker with a 2l zetec he squirted himself on bike throttle bodies and it was eating type9's even ate a club one
from too much power
had to tone it down come the end and it would pass a cat test come mot time

Right behind you on this one Wasa. :) Please let me know how you get on as Ive been thinking of replacing my Pinto with a Zetec/ ST170 but would only be prepared to go for it if i could use the fuel injection system and ECU.

Getting hold of the right engine, modding the sump, moving the exhaust to the other side of the car - that all sounds quite enough bother and cost without having to tinker around and spend hundreds on bespoke manifolds, setting up bike carbs and rolling road sessions as at that point I'd be better off putting a Cosworth head on the Pinto.

Dynos on drugs:D 200hp zetecs cost between 3k and 5k if they are built properly, someone best phone up the tuning boys and tell them about mega sqiff . Keep going at it Wasa its the way to go. Shame these cars arn`t like the old range rover with a complete stand alone ecu and wiring system. All it did was pick up a couple of wires on its way past the ignition switch.

Bob

I allready do the Mondeo zetec ecu's silver and black top.
The mondeo engine loom is almost self contained. If you could fit it in the engine bay there would only be one 42 pin plug to wire up and only around half the plug is used. These are good for around 150bhp

The st170 gets more advanced and more complicated. The extra tunning needs extra controle.

On top of the blacktop stuff...
you have.

barametric sensor
vairable inlet
vairable valve timming
returnless fuel pump controler and pressure sensors.
pre and post o2 sensors.

The ecu also hooks into all sorts inclueding the clock

If I can do this then I can do the RS loom.

carbs just cant give you spot on fueling everywhere and std ecus are set by car makers and have to create somthing thats is designed to make an engine econimcal,quiet,smooth,enviromental and long lasting you can do some basic ajustment if you can get in, but are hardware limited.

any programable ecu is the door to running what ever you want or need plus everythin is ajustable to what you want

at college we had a std n/a toyota twincam on a bench dyno with 4 gas ( widebands where very rare at the time) and loads of other monitor equipment with two ecu setups one std toyota ecu and hardware and the other was a early programable unit that was swaped over from the std toyota one all other hardware was unchanged
the toyota ecu was programed by toyota and would retard ign in areas to reduce noise and run lean in other areas for enviromental regs etc
when the programable unit was used set to optimum fueling and timing the torque plot was way higher at all rpms and had no holow points just one big nice arc.
we used this bench dyno for all sorts of sudies on engine manigment and automotive eletronics
i did not cover actual live dyno mapping just the effects of modern engine magement, live mapping was done by the motorsport enginering students but we did share lots of the same classes together in my 3rd year
corse if anyone here actualy has anymore experince here than me im all ears :D
also done some work with diesel engines on a realy old water brake dyno if anyone here knows them

i never did get to the bottom of how the st170 fuel supply system ran, when i was looking for the what fuel pressure it ran at i got back it was veriable controled buy the ecu and there is an odd diaphram thingy in the fuel rail that goes off to somewhere via a vac tube ?

now if anyone has sorted a st170 motor with a programable ecu to run verible cam timing and snip out the cat and ditch all the rubish that would be intersting :D

I have wasted so much time going backwards and forwards to rolling roads that I bought an old Stuska dyno so I can do my own mapping, I also grabbed a four gas analyser. Its only a water brake with analog guages but it should do all I want. she is a beast rated at 800hp.I just need to plumb it in now and have a play:eek:





Bob

wow that looks posher than the one i used we had to hang weights off the arm on side of it and ajust the vane angle to get it to ballance then had to work it all out on paper sadly that was the whole idea of the exersise more about number crunching. fun fun fun :confused:
god knows where thay dug it up from it was very old

work sent me to our rail engine rebilders as a triaining exesise a few years back i got a look around all thair dynos as i showed some interst, thay had some real monsters there and had some cat 1200bhp lifeboat engines running full chat on one and some massive mtu units on the other was a real eye opener made everything else look tiny

i only got to play on the dyno with engine we used and i help rebuild also dyno'ed a hyd gearbox for efficency that was basicly 2 torque meaters either side

I was hopeing someone here was going to tell me how to drive the thing.I have never seen or used one of the water braked jobbies before:eek:

Bob

Cosworth head on a Pinto is a BIG job
Pistons no cheap way out
Cam belt crank pully, the cossy crank is longer and the pully smaller will need to machine to fit a Pinto crank
I would question cost saving over an injected Zetec
All interesting this thread, the Ford ECU whatever version is always difficult to break into, I have a friend who can using Ford software to get very deep into it but every instalation would need him at the rolling road.
Megasquirt has been proven but I find it a leap to far for me, price though is competitive and we have picked them up under £200
There will always be a limit on how much you an squeeze out of a standard engine, the ST170 never made 170bhp.
I watch with interest

I'll second that! About 4 positives, 2 negatives and it starts up. But its layout is such that you'd have to mount the ECU under the nose cone, not the best of places.

from what i can remember on the one i used is its like a torque converter with a verible angle vane in it you can ajust, the output side can rotate a small amount and has a arm off the side of the body that either goes to some form a force mesument device, ours was an arm that ballanced weights so distence over force = torque and if you know rpm's then you can get bhp
you need to factor the loss of your waterbrake as some energy is converted to heat etc. also are well know for been inconsistent so be warned we took 6 or so runs to get an avrage or "mean" reading took all day to do
then another full day number crunching :(

here is a little run down on how we used it on a big diesel engine on wot to get max fueling on the govener

we would add weights to end of arm then ajust vain angle to ajust brakes load and lift the weight the more weight it could lift before pulling rpms down the more torque you had , keep repeating adding vain angle and weight taking readings as we go untill we pull the rpms all the way down.
then number crunch losses and all the other stuff to get accurate torque for each load point that then create dots on a graph
then a good old bit of dot to dot to get a torque curve then do same again to get a bhp curve
all was a bit back to front as you had to find what rpms you had for each torque 100nm then 110nm and so on not what torque was at set rpms
i think later waterbrakes had hyd pressure cells
i think everything is eletric now and has been for some time waterbrakes where very old hat 17years ago as i can remember

The engine loom on the newer mondeo, I use 23 wires out of the 42 plug. I chop the loom up and remake the it to fit the car.

I agree 100% but "most" of these cars are budget blasters not formula cars.

Given the choice of max available power @ WOT or great drivability across the range I would choose the second.

dont get me wrong i get it totaly. i looked into it to do it for my build as a option looked like too much work and money for me

+1:)

Bob

Collecting the parts is going well, ive found some cheap bits on ebay and I have had a few donations ;)

todays bargain was a scrap yard find, I love ford. so few parts are one car specific. St badge £££ with out £

One Imrc for a fiver :p

Work has started on the loom today.

This is the starting point.

A little update.

First job, let the dog see the rabbit.

There are four looms in the engine bay. The main car loom and three for the engine. Its these three ive started on. There is only two on the <2000 mondeo and other than a couple of extra plugs thats all you need. So Ive stripped back the three sub looms.



I am now tracing back from the ecu the 104 pins

Your " her in doors" and she who must be obeyed must be a lot more understanding than mine wasa. If i brought that lot in and shoved it on the dining table she would shove it where the sun dont shine:eek:

How the hell have ford ended up with so much wiring on something as simple as an ecu, surely some of that will get trimmed out:confused: The loom I made up to go with the emerald ecu has a fraction of the wiring.

Bob

I am hyperventilating already:eek: :eek:

Swimbo was at work so while the cats away the mice can do what the feck they like:p


It will need 95% of that then some more besides.

There is alot more control over the engine than after market.

When you start totting things up...

4 injectors
ISCV
TPS
ECT
AC Clutch
Knock (maybee 2)
Cat 1
Cat 2
IMRC
MAF
EDIS
COILPACK
CPS
Phase Sensor
VSS
Variable Steering control
fuel rail preasure
Barrometric Preasure

TT

AC Clutch, Just a load switch to up revs at tick over and cut under WOT
Knock (maybee 2), just the one.Its a high compression motor.
EDIS, Not seen an external edis on anything 1990> thats not an auto trans'
Variable Steering control, seperate ecu but it is connected by can-bus.

So yep we have,

4 injectors, 2 wires each.
ISCV, 2 wires.
TPS, 3 wires.
ECT, 2 wires.
Knock, 2 wires.
Cat 1, 4 wires.
Cat 2, 4 wires
IMRC, 4~5 wires I cant remember of the top of my head.
MAF, 6 wires but has Iat built in
CPS, 2 wires.
Phase Sensor, 2 wires.
COILPACK, three wires.
VSS, 3 wires.
fuel rail preasure, 3 wires.
Barrometric Preasure, 3 wires.

Also you have the
fuel pump driver modual.
pats

There will come a point where you cant run a high emissions engine with out penalties. Some eu countrys already tax kitcars bassed on there emmisions.

Its not that hard if you brake it down into blocks. ie

start with putting the ecu where you want it.
Run the wires for the injectors. Thats one switched live and four earths to the ecu.

keep going with any one of the above and finish each one before starting the next. One weekends work will give you a full loom to wrap and thats it no messing, no tunning just plug it all in and play.

Good on you wasa , when you have sorted through all this I reckon you should knock them out to the kit car industry. Thats a huge saving over the aftermarket alternatives.

Bob

So your basically keeping the pats but just stripping back from the body loom to only have the engine loom.

But you have to do something once the ignition is on to signal PATS to go off because of this?

TT

There ae two security sytems. the Passive Anti Theft system and the Active Anti Theft system.

The PAT's is built into the ecu and is an immobilizer the AAT's is a seperate alarm unit. But the AAT's does take a signal from the PAT's.

The immobilizer will run independant of the alarm.

So yes its a case of seperating the engine loom from the car. With more advanced comunication between all the cars systems its case of seing if I can keep the ecu happy to run full power.

The Pats is really no big deal to use, its just four wires and an antenna around the ignition barrel. You dont have to do anything with it, it is completly Passive.

The big question was always "how much of the body wiring do you have to use"

are you saying that you only have the engine loom, and the connections from that to the inductive pickup at the key? and no other parts of the body loom.

TT

On the mondeo then You only need the engine loom and a couple of plugs from the car loom such as the pats plug, the obd2 plug. Thats why Ive allways gone with the mondeo. You just unplug the 42 pin plug and tease the loom out and grab the two plugs from around the steering.

The st loom has a seperate gear box loom but it is looking like I will only need a few plugs from the car loom.

Pats
DLC (Obd2)
IMRC

I dont know about the evap yet.

Ive done a marathon session on the wiring loom this week end.

I "think" I have traced back and worked out the colour and function of every pin on the st170 ecu loom.

Now starts the work of choping the loom up and removing the bits I dont want and rebuilding the loom to fit my kitcar.
I am finding twice as many functions means twice as much work

If any one is thinking of having ago ? then the only plug you need of the car loom with the fuse box is the plug for the Imrc.

On the gearbox loom you want the pre o2 sensor plug and the cps plug.

On the dash board loom there is the tranceiver plug and the obd2 port. I just robbed these two from a mk3 mondeo.

And we have progress. It was cold out side, the wife was at work and the kids where glued to some silly xbox game so I had the afternoon finishing my wiring loom.

A quick check over and I had to see if I could make it fire. I dont have an st engine yet so I slapped it on the silvertop.

Its running in very much a limp home mode as the sensors that are conected are only sat on top of the engine bar the crank / cam / coil.

The reasons for this again is getting the st engine to run in a 7 on a budget with the vvt and dsi that will go well and meet iva emisions.
And when I say budget, ive been paying <£30 for ecu's.

Still lots to do..... But looks promissing.


http://youtu.be/lLuJS5KiboE

Still very interesting.

I have a blacktop with loom, ecu , key and pickup. Will have to have a closer look at it if I can find it. I Bought a DEEP ecu to go with it to avoid PATS but it sounds like I did not need to.

TT