Just what should a 'complete chassis' consist of?
 

As some of you may already know, I work on kit cars full time, mostly finishing off kits that the original builders have run out of time, or patience, with.

Typical situation would be where somebody has been building a car for a few years, progress has been slow, it's a bit trickier than thery expected, they are busy at work, etc etc, and they just need someone to finish off the kit and get it on the road.

Anyway, I frequently find myself stuck on a build because I am waiting for parts, or waiting for a decision from the owner, or waiting for various other reasons, so I decided to build a car of my own, for eventual sale, so as to have something to do when other work is held up for some reason.

Having decided on the Haynes Roadster, I then looked into getting a ready made chassis. I wasn't able to find anyone who could supply one at a reasonable price or within a reasonable length of time, so realised that I would have to make it myself.

I used to be involved in chassis making, so I have been busy digging out all my equipment and updating some of it so as to improved the accuracy and speed of the assembly. The main jig consists of two large, heavy steel girders with various other steel parts welded and clamped to them, I don't use a build table as such. I use lasers for projecting centrelines and checking some of the distances. The stuff I use for cutting and preparing the ends is easily capable of matching the accuracy of the ready made chassis packs available, and has the advantage that I can modify the design dimensions if necessary.

Having gone to all this trouble, and having become recently aware of the difficulty in obtaining a ready-made chassis, I am now wondering if I should offer ready-made chassis to others. In order to know how much to ask, though, I have to know just what I am going to be supplying, in other words, just what is a complete chassis?

Normally I would think of a complete chassis as being the central assembly to which everything which needs to be welded to it has already been welded to it. So, obviously, things such as seatbelt mountings would be an integral part.

But what about the rollbar? That's bolted on, as is the pedal box, although both these sub-assemblies require welding.

Sorry to go on at such length, and thanks for reading this far. I thought the background would prove useful. So, what I would like to know is-

Just what would the people here expect to be included in a complete chassis? Oh, and by the way, if anyone knows of somebody who is already selling a complete chassis (and which is available within a reasonable length of time) I would be very interested, and would simply buy one and cancel my own chassis-making plans and get on with my car building plans.

3GE do one,and someone in clydeside is as well.
My idea of a complete chassis would have all the brackets fitted for suspension,steering,rad ,brake lines, roll bar inc and wishbones ready to bolt on.All you would have to do is fit hubs etc (available as a kit of course).

The idea of the Roadster is that " you " build it on a budget and the satisfaction I personally get from seeing a pile of metal growing all beit slowly into a car is indescribable. The day I can say to someone that ask's "Where did you buy it" will not come quickly enough and you know exactly what the answer will be.

There is a market for what you have in mind and something custom built to their spec is what some will be looking for.

Good luck.

Personally, as someone who hasn't got the space, talent or equipment needed to build the cahssis, I would have liked the idea of getting something like the attached image (bar engine etc).
I had planned to buy an MK Indy at a simlar stage when I found my Roadster by good fortune, so ended up paying for a finished car.
If someone offered to build one to this stage with the customer supplied wheels, uprights, brakes, shocks, then that would be a great service.
Hmmmm, I have the wheels, brakes, uprights etc waiting......

Unfortuntely 3GE have a waiting list of many months, otherwise I would probably have got one.

'Someone in Clydeside' is really a bit to vague to be of any real use to me, I'm afraid, but thanks anyway.

As to Clydeautomarine, I'm guessing that they did have in mind to offer chassis but for some reason or other haven't seen it through
http://www.haynes.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1662
certainly there has been no response to my request for pictures, and I have had PM's which suggest that there may be some kind of problem there

The Talon Motorsport thing really hasn't got going yet, as the guy himself says, he just doing market research at the moment.

3GE, as said earlier, have a very long waiting list, I was quoted nine months, so that's no good either

So that leaves us with Armoto. I was aware that they did ready cut chassis parts, but didn't know that they also offered ready made complete chassis. Are you sure? I would appreciate any information you have about that.

If anyone is going to do a chassis then it should be treated like any other kit and shouldn't need any extra brackets welding on...buy it take it home and start bolting it together like a big meccano kit.

There are quite a few cars out there now that wouldn't be there if it wasn't for Uncle Ron's book, they have evolved from escort based Locost to Sierra and BMW based whatevers...has to be the easiest route into being a kit car manufacturer:D

My ten pence worth !!

I would class a complete chassis as one completed to the book spec or to the customers individual specs ( At extra cost ).

Requires no further welding. :) :)

Bolt on components. Roll bar, wishbones, painted or powder coated finish & the likes, all optional extras ;)

Persactly...;)

I would have to say that to me a complete chassis would be exactly that "complete" in other words ready to receive all the other components without use of a welder.
I dont want to teach granma to suck eggs, but would suggest you build a complete car first then build chassis to the same spec to sell as then you can be confident that nothing has been forgotten and all the bits fit.
Thats what i would do if i were to offer a chassis for sale as "complete"
Ray :)

I agree there meduck a car must be built first to iron out any issues then jig it all up and productionise it all.

what i have in mind, done some research & putting things in place at the mo.

once my own car is complete i will take this further :)

andy

I too have considered making "extra" components as i go along and offering them for sale but feel that i should know that the parts fit and are perfect so as to be able to sell with confidence.
as in the case of steering rack extensions if you buy ones made to the book it seems they are too long.
Ray :)

Are there some doubts, then, as to whether or not Chris's design (as updated by the corrections published on this forum) works, then?

Apparently there are.

I can see building a prototype if the design was going to be altered, but sticking to the published design it should be OK, shouldn't it?

Anyway, getting back to the original question, are we all happy that the definition of complete chassis is, as suggested in the original post, just the welded central structure and doesn't include the roll-over bar and the pedal box?

One thing that concerns me with that definition is that without the roll-over baer there are no upper seat belt mountings.

Building a car for yourself can include mods to suit your self and correct the differences from the original design that were missed from the book.
Nobody is 100% right all the time and Chris's car has been made to a spec that would not be allowed on the road if not roadworthy and safe,then we add the human element of the home builder.

Chris's design is well tested as Martin Keenan I believe had a helping hand in it and there are a lot of similar kits and cars around.
Surely Haynes would not have anything to do with it if it were not 100% safe and tested.
I hope your venture works out Mr Henderson,in this day and age it's nice to see someone making headway.

Thanks you for the encouraging words. My main venture is helping other people build their cars, and that seems to be pretty much ongoing. I've got another two cars coming in this week. The chassis doings is pretty much a filling in thing, and a response to the difficulty I experienced when trying to buy one.

It will be a little while before I have one ready to sell because I am spending a lot of time on getting the equipment, the jig and the techniques right, instead of just steaming ahead. If, in the meantime, somebody else is able to produce and offer a chassis then I may well become a buyer instead of a seller. Just have to wait and see, I guess.

I'll be getting somebody else to do the welding, as I am neither quick enough nor neat enough. My assembly is good, though, and my material preparation spot on.

No problem with Chris's design but if someone intends to make chassis to sell on then they need to build a car and get it tested to prove it's safe....a drawing is just a drawing at the end of the day..

Good luck to anyone getting into the weird world of kit cars especially the way the world is these days, often makes me wonder why I did....:confused:

But the problem with that is that the chassis being sold would not be the one that was being 'tested'.

I will be interested in hearing Chris G's thoughts on this one, whether he feels that a chassis built to the specs and dimensions given in his book, and ammended in line with the information published on this forum, would in any way be unsuitable for sale.

Personally I think the idea that a complete car needs to be built in order to test the design does rather fly in the face of both the published (and ammended) design and the cars that have already been built.

If what people are getting at is that the design might be OK, but my building of it might not be, then they should come out and say so directly. I have already said that it won't be me welding it, I will get a coded welder to do that, and it will be built to the published and ammended design and dimensions, so just what is the problem? Please be more specific in your replies.

Build a car and even non kit car folk will know what it is even if they do say "ooo it's a Westfield" make a chassis and 99% of folk won't know what it is.....simples!::p

Also there are welders and then there are fabricator/welders two different things....I know a bloke who can weld like you won't believe, it's annoying how neat it is yet ask him to work to drawings, cut steel and make something and he is buggered...coding covers a set welding procedure not actually making something and usually the test piece is done by someone else and all you have to do is weld it up correctly...not easy but doable;)

I'm sure you are trying to be helpful, but I wonder whether you are perhaps skimming what I have written (I know I tend to write long posts) rather than reading it. I have already said that I will be doing the material prepartion and assembly, and someone else will be welding it.

I may not be a fast fabricator, but I'm a bloody good one (not really 'talent' just obsessive attention to detail).

Oh, and by the way, the intention is only to offer chassis to people who already know what a Haynes Roadster is, so no need to build a complete car for the purpose of showing them.

Okey doke but still think anyone intending to get into doing this should build a car and show it off to try and convert non kit car folk into having a go at making their own kit.

Those that have met me know I talk rubbish most of the time anyway so I wouldn't listen to me If I was you........:confused:

No wish to convert non kit car folk, but if they come to my workshop there will usually be at least three kit cars here anyway, so if conversion is needed then I guess it can be accomplished.

Thanks for the advice, and as I did say earlier the only reason for wanting to build a chassis in the first place was so that I could have one on which to build one or more cars when other work is held up. What I was reacting to was the thought put forward by several posters that I had to make a complete car before I could offer anyone else a chassis, and this does seem illogical, hence my requesting more information about this rather odd sounding idea.

Hello again,
it would seem that my comment about building a car first may have been taken in slightly the wrong context,
I was not doubting the integrity of the chassis design ( if i did i wouldnt have a 99% completete one sat in my workshop)
my point was more about the fact that there are still areas that people are having problems with and also you really will have to complete a car to know that all brackets required are actually there (i keep finding bits that are needed and i thought i had almost finished my chassis)
also there are quite afew brackets needed that you cant do until you decide on a rad or bodywork etc even just a bracket for the horn.
i would be alittle annoyed if i bought a"complete"chassis and later found i had to weld bits to it but thats just me
also if people buy a chassis and it is all there then you will get a good reputation but if people buy one and have to finish it by adding bits here taking off bits there then you will get a bad reputation
maybe some of these reasons are why others havent come up with the expected complete off the shlf chassis you were looking for
if you bought a westfield or caterham chassis would you expect it to be finished (no welding)
Ray:)

OOH, my missus just said " how can u have a complete chasis with engine mounts if you dont know what engine type or size is going in it?? Yet another flaw to these complete chasis ideas, u would need to be building it to the buyers spec rather than just a run of the mill"
So there u go even a woman understands where i am coming from lol

You can make them to suit different engines, i used to do mounts for the Pinto, zetec, R1, Fireblade and zx9 so there were choices to be had. As for brackets for the rad etc these really should be on the chassis but most kits don't have them...:confused: And some have bodywork that doesn't fit but heyp thats kit cars for you....:D

The beauty of doing it yourself at home is you make it to suit what you have but a company has to draw a line somewhere or they all become "one offs" and unless folk pay "one off" money it won't be cost effective.

Same applies to grp, the moulds make what the moulds make and if anyone wants something different then a plug needs to be made and then a mould, this all takes time and money.

may i add my own personal thoughts on this.......

i,m am looking at producing complete chassis,s to sell on, whilst i have been building my own car i,m learning a great deal about as has been said about the little bits that need adding on even when you think you have completely finished welding, horn, rad brackets etc, also the engine mounting positions is something that would need to be finalised when the order is placed.

my feeling is if i,ve built my own car i would feel confident in giving advice to anyone that has a query, if i had experience of the query i would then offer a possible solution etc.

i am not knocking anyone,s way of how to go about their own builds or anyone wishing to supply a chassis, i just feel in myself that i would/have gained a hands on knowledge of the process to build a Roadster.

i wish all who take the decision to supply a chassis for selling on to a customer the very best of luck, & hope their venture is a prosperous one .

andy :)

andy

I believe I see what you are getting at, but I think we are talking about two different things.

I am proposing to sell complete Haynes Roadster chassis as described in the book and subject to the ammendments published on this form. Now, if that is what someone wants that's great, and we will both be happy.

If, on the other hand, someone wants to fit for instance, a SOHC Ford V8 with a Tremec box then what I am selling isn't going to suit them, so either they can buy it knowing that they are going to have to modify it, or order it, and supply the power unit and let me make the required modifications, and pay the extra, or....... not buy it.

I really can't see how my having made a pinto-engined standard roadster chassis is going to have the slightest impact on the example described above.

Please bear in mind I spend all day building and modifying kit cars, so I do have some idea of what is involved. As a for instance of that I will not be doing the CP16 as in the book (the plate that the steering column passes through), but instead will modify it to receive a proper bearing which I will supply.

I hope that reassures all those who feel that I need to build a complete example before I can offer a chassis to anyone else

I might be wrong but I think the book engine mounts are more or less OK as is :)

Why do I say this !!??

The book was based on the Pinto engine.

I had originally tacked my engine mounts up exactly to the book spec.

Test fitted a CVH engine, The only work needed to be done was to slot the holes ;)

Now I am going to go the Zetec route. Test measurements show that by fabricating engine mounting arms to suit the Zetec engine & the book spec mounts will be fine as is. :)

If I were to produce a chassis for re-sale, I would slot the enine mount holes as a matter of course.

I'll try to post a picture as soon as I can

Aftermarket Zetec engine mounting arms are available, off the shelf. Cost an arm & a leg for what they are though :eek:

The MK etc are designed for the pinto if you want to fit owt else thats up to you think that goes for most kit cars really as impossible for them to cater for every engine out there.

Found this post interesting because it talks about exactly what I'll be looking to buy in 5 months time.

I think that a complete chassis should require no further welding, but would anticipate certain aspects to be made universal (such as the slotted engine mounts mentioned)

Watch this space then matey....;)

Hi Eddy,

may i ask where are you located?

andy:)

That could be done, of course, bt is not necessarily the best solution.

If I was buying a ready made chassis I would prefer no drilling of the engine mount plates, and would drill them to suit my own set up. It's not unknown for engines to move where slots allow them to

this is then where the discussion with the customers "wish list" & donor engine choice can be incorporated into the building of the chassis can come in .

andy

I have to dissagree with that one !!??

Many production cars use oversize engine mounting holes. with the use of the correct fixings & tightened correctly, there is no reason for the engine to move ??.
In any event, it would need both fixings to become loose in order for the engine to move ;)

If it were an unsafe practice to slot holes, it would not be allowed under the IVA regulations.

Remove a Ford Escort subframe & inspect the clearance holes in them :eek: :eek:

They require the use of large temporary locating pins to allow the correct alignment of the subframe.
I would say that a subframe is under a lot more stress than an engine !!??

That's my thoughts for what they are worth.

wow a bit of a lively subject this one.........
well done everyone for provoking a bit of dialogue .....
as for slots and holes.......
i,m with Ronnie !!!!
slots are ok ..........its the clamping force that provides the security and retention of the bolted together bits
cheers les g

I would imagine that in your line of work Les, you must come across some hefty MF slot fixed components :eek: :eek:
I have seen some beautys on some of the agricultural stuff ;)

I'm very well aware that many production cars use a good many slots in their engine mountings and oversize holes for subframes, Ford Mondeos certainly do and presumably all other similar cars.

However, and to be fair, this discussion does have a context, and the context is the Haynes Roadster. With the type of engine mountings used in the book I would not use slots if it could possibly be avoided.

Reasons-

How much torque should this type of rubber mounting be subjected to? I don't have any workshop manuals featuring this type to hand, but basically it's a flat plate bonded to rubber, and surely should not be tightened beyond a moderate amount.

If just isn't necessary. In a production situation makers are working to tolerances and need to be sure that any slight variations in the different components can be compensated for by lining up the parts and then tightening the fixings wherever they happen to be in the slots. But in our situation we are fitting a specific engine to a specific chassis. Much better to offer up the engine, mark the mounting plates where the bolts make contact, then drill the plates and get the exact fit, and keep it! without having to tighten the nuts to provide the clamping force that would be needed to resist any possible movement.

Anyway, I did say "not necessarily":)

HandyAndy - I live in East Kent, close to Margate.

I didn't mean that I would want slotted engine mounts, its just what I would have expected from a completed chassis. I think the person selling their completed chassis would want to appeal to as many people as possible, so would try to allow for the widest range of engines possible without the need for modification.

Simply not possible, I'm afraid. A nice idea but impractical in reality, there are far too many variables.

Much better for the maker to modify the design to suit a particular power unit, which either they might have to hand, or which the customer would have to provide.

Having made engine mountings for various cars, and modified chassis to suit, I know that there is no way of providing a 'universal' chassis. Slots alone would be nowhere near enough, the mountings would have to be able to move in 3 dimensions and by a considerable amount.