white smoke...

[voucht]

Hi,
It is the 3rd radiator I fit on my car, the two first were leaking. Bad luck...

This morning, I fitted the 3rd radiator. After a long run, and a thorough check, it looks like it is not leaking. Finally :)

But I think I have now another problem. A bigger problem actually. Not the first time I notice it, but this time, I made a video for you to see.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99498333@N06/11840767876/


The video only shows the first 7'30'' of the whole run, but the 5 first minutes would have been enough, and 7 minutes is still pretty long (and boring) to watch, so if you can't watch it completely, here are the key moments:

Time 0. I start the engine, cold, no problem. A bit of steam on the collector and the exhaust pipes is just due to a bit of condensation on these parts (yes, this is Sweden in winter !)

Time: 1 minute. A very thick and white smoke starts coming out from the exhaust. It looks like the head gasket is dead, no? Temperature of the engine is still cold if I refer to the temperature gauge of the dash board (which is working)

Time: 4 minutes. It stops smoking. Exhaust gas look pretty normal now. Why if the head gasket is broken? The temperature of the engine is still quite low, and is slowly rising, nothing looks abnormal when it comes to the temperature.

Time: 7 minutes: water hoses and radiator are still not hot. Which means that the thermostat is still closed, or all the water has evaporated during the 4 first minutes!

Time: 7'30'' : video stops...

Time 12-15 minutes : hoses and radiator start to heat up, which means that the thermostat is now open, and water (or steam!) is circulating. Temperature is still going up, but slowly.

Time 25 minutes: water temperature is at mid range of the gauge.

Time 35 minutes : Fan starts up now, water has reached the trigger temperature.

Time 40 minutes : I turn the engine off.


This was this morning. I checked tonight, when everything has cooled down, and the header tank was completely empty (I had to refill with about 1,5 litre of water). Is this a normal thing, or does than mean that this smoke was actually all this water being evaporated?

What do you think is my problem? Might these 3 minutes of white smoke occur because I put too much coolant in the circuit in the first place*? Or is my head gasket definitely dead?

Thank you.

[alga]

I've heard that Ford TwinCams are prone to head cracking. Do you have any signs of exhaust gasses in the coolant?

That said, my roadster also emits white vapour during the first minutes of a cold start in cool weather.

Albertas

[jason 82]

Sounds like the head gasket has gone, that sounds as if water is getting into the block, & it's burning it off. ;) My rover 25 was identical to that. I took the head for a skim, and was told that it was badly distorted, & was advised to check the block face, and that needed a shave as well. It's a bitch of a job, but it's the kind of thing that you only want to do once. It's very rare that the block face needs a skim, but for the sake of dropping a straight edge across it, it could save hours and hours of wasted time and effort. Good luck !

[K4KEV]

Hi Syl... I defo think most of that is water vapor in your exhaust gases and you most certainly are using it some where if you have to top up 1.5 lt ....is there any white/grey gunge (emulsified oil) in either your coolant or rocker cover if there is, that would defo point to hg issues .....smell your header tank for petrol/exhaust fumes or if it is over-pressurizing , check head bolts
certainly sounds like hg failure.....needless to say it can only get worse if it is:(

[flyerncle]

Warm it up with correct amount of water in header tank and then run it at about 2500 rpm for a couple of minutes and then turn it off and let it cool for a few minutes,remove the plugs and look to see if one of them is cleaner than the others and that would probably be due to the water in the cylinder giving you more O2 and therefore better combustion and the possibility of HG failure as the plug would be burnt cleaner than the others.

Emulsified oil in rocker cover can be many things,short journeys,crap oil,lack of service,does not always mean head gasket.

most simple and quickest test is to check for HC in header tank but you need access to gas test to do this (mot station).

[twinturbo]

Early DOHC's ( as in the sierra ) had single layer head gaskets. which is prone to failure.

Later Scorpio/Galaxy use a multi layer gasket which is much better.

But the head also does crack between the valves lettign water past and into thebores with no other obvious signs except for possibly full or partial hydualic lock on startup.

If there is absolutly no other sign of a leak then one of the above is the logical conclusion.

TT

[j.brownster79]

I would agree with the other guys sounds and looks like head trouble! U would always get a little white smoke on initial start up due to the cold weather, a few things to look at is 1, look for brown sludge in the rocker cover ( water getting into your oil) 2, coolant system pressuring quickly ( leak across the water jackets) 3, do a hydro carbons test there is a liquid tester you can buy which is not expensive the liquid starts of purple and goes green if there is unburnt fuel in the cooling system! If it proves to be head probs get it skimmed but also pressure tested cos you wouldn't see a crack with ur eyes it could only open up when it gets warm! 1.5 ltrs of water is going somewhere!! Normal engine conditions shouldn't loose any! Hope you get it sorted soon

[voucht]

Hello,

Thank you very much to you all for the replies, infos, tips, etc.

Yes, it really looks like it is a head gasket failure, and perhaps a problem of cracks in the head. There is definitely a kind of brown thing in the header tank, and considering what you all say, the head casket, is dead and may be worse... These aluminium heads can't be skimmed, but only exchanged, at least that what is written in the repair manual.

Well, this engine is 250000 km, it is leaking oil from the rock cover, I suspect crank seals are not in a good shape either, and it is from my donor I bought for £250. When I consider the cost and time of making the tests, buying the parts, and working tame to do to fix the problem I have, without being sure the engine will be OK after that (it is old and used, and other problems can occur), I think I'd better buy another engine.

I found a Scorpio 2.0i DOHC which is 150000km for sale for £250 not far from here, it looks to be in a good shape, and even though I haven't made my mind yet, I think I will go it. It is the easiest, quickest, and perhaps cheapest way to fix my problem. Especially if, as TT says, Scorpio DOHC have a better head gasket.

My first building inspection is booked now for the 28th of January, and I need the definitive engine fitted in the car if I decide to change it before going to the inspection, so I'll make my mind this week-end.

Thanks again for the help :)

[twinturbo]

What year scorpio is it.

Over here the SCORPIO was the BUGEY from 1995 , pror to that it was the granada.

If it's the BUGEYE then it will be a 16V engine. The downpipe may be different and the inlet is most certainly different. It will also be runnign EEC-V engine management with the ford PATS immobilisers system

The Escort RS2000 loom and ECU can be adapted to run the scorpio 16v engine. though.


If it's a Granada then it probably has the same head gasket as yours but if it's running well then it would be worth it anyway.

You can then strip the old engien at your leisure to see whats up.

Rob

[davidimurray]

Are you sure it was bled properly after the rad change? Could the block have had a big air lock in it and the thermostat opening has dumped it all into the block emptied the header tank. Refill and repeat 4 or 5 times to make sure you do really have water loss.

[Enoch]

Looks like a new Pope has been elected:D
If you wanted to try a very quick bodge you could put a bottle of K seal in it. If you don't know k seal, it was developed for the Rover K series engine, which has a dirty habit of head gasket failure. In actual fact it's not always gasket failure and more to do with erosion of the head or top of the block. Some say liner slippage is the cause but K seal often does the trick. It's not massively expensive (about £7 a bottle over here) and may just help you get through your inspection without having to do an engine swap.
Best of luck with whatever way you go.
Dave.

[flyerncle]

Does anybody know you are out on your own ?:p

Drill a small hole in flange of thermostsat to allow air out,did this on the large amount of Rover h/g I have done in the last don't know how many years.

[voucht]

Thank you for the last replies.

Yes I thought about the Pope thingy too ;)

I'm pretty sure I bled the water circuit properly, I always fill it with the top hose disconnected, and reconnect it when water starts to come out of it, as it is the highest point of the system, I think it was not the problem, but thanks for the input.

As I said, I want to avoid any repair, time and expense if I have to change the engine at one point anyway. I just no longer trust this engine, and I don't want it to become a bottomless well for my time and money. I still have more than two weeks before the inspection, and I think I have time to swap the engine before. Doing it after will be more paperwork, perhaps another inspection, so better to have the final engine before. But thanks for the tip Enoch :-)

TT, the Scorpio engine I might buy is a 8v DOHC for sure, it is from 1992. I would have loved to fit a 16v from a Scorpio or RS2000, not impossible as it is the same block, and it would have solve my under-bonnet clearance problems too. But I would have to change the exhaust manifold which is now adapted to my exhaust line, and buy the right ECU and engine loom. So I will keep it simple, and cheap for now.

Here is the info on the engine if you want to check. ("mileage is in "Swedish miles", which is not a mile, but 10km! So the engine is 150.000km)
http://en.bildelsbasen.se/index.php?index=default&link=item&post_id=8649700

The only difference I can see with mine, is that mine is a N9C and this one a N9D, but according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_I4_DOHC_engine#N9C.2FN9E.2FNSE.2FN9D), they are the same. I will get pictures of the engine early next week, so I will be 100% sure.

Thank you very much for the help :)

[twinturbo]

It will have the old style gasket though unless it's been done already.

TT

[voucht]

Ok, so now I'm confused, and not sure about anything :confused:

This week-end I have run the engine again. In spite of what I answered to Davidmurray, I thought afterwards that it might be worth to check: perhaps the cooling circuit was just not properly drained, and that is the reason why I had to add so much water after my first run. So I made several runs of the engine, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes and even 1 hour.

And know, I think that David might be actually right. So sorry David, and thanks, you gave me the will to investigate further.

Run after run,I had to refill the header tank with less and less water. 1L to 1.5L after the run on the video as already mentioned, then 750ml, then 250 ml, and after the 3 last runs, I haven't had to refill at all (of course, I checked the lever after collong down (2-3 hours after the run). And theses 3 last runs were respectively 20 minutes, 40 minutes, and more than one hour for the last one. It looks like I'm no longer loosing coolant.

So tonight, I removed the spark plugs and the rocker cover, to check. You can see on my pictures here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99498333@N06/sets/72157639704156803/

... that under the rocker cover, it is very clean, it is only oil, and it does not look to me like there is any trace of coolant in there.
There is also a video (http://www.flickr.com/photos/99498333@N06/11915906636/) (I know the distribution plastic cover is cracked (that is where the engine is leaking oil) and I bought a non-cracked one second had a couple of months ago, so replaced it tonight, as the rocker cover was open)

You can also see the spark plugs, and none of them show the signs flyerncle described.

Yesterday, there was a bit of brownish thing floating at the surface of the coolant in the header tank, but as TT said, this old engine and the second had radiator I fitted were certainly dirty. And today, not at all, as you can (not easily :) ) see on the pictures.

But... there is still this white smoke at the beginning, when I start up the engine when its cold. It always last 3-4 minutes but not more. After than, exhaust gas are completely invisible. I would also like to say that the smoke looks not as thick as it was last week on the video, but perhaps it is just my imagination.

Is this white smoke really abnormal? If there was a problem with the head gasket or the cracks in the head, wouldn't the engine always emit this white smoke, until there is no more coolant to burn?

So I think I'm back to the starting point, and I don't know what to do :(

Any ideas ?

Thanks a lot.

[davidimurray]

Good news that you are not suffering from water loss :) Shifting air out engines can be quite difficult - my pinto did not not fully bleed itself until I actually took it for a drive.

In terms of 'white smoke' it sounds perfectly normal to me, particularly if the weather is a bit cold. If I start mine at the moment it will blow 'white smoke' for 5-10 minutes. It is only condensation and once the exhaust is hot it will stop.

[j.brownster79]

Agree with David condensation in the exhaust will cause a little white smoke on the initial start up until the exhaust is warm if you want to be sure about the head gasket get one of these testers for a piece of mind!! Look at this on eBay:

UNIVERSAL BLOCK TESTER KIT FOR GASKETS & CYLINDER HEADS BT500

http://bit.ly/18DxniX

[flyerncle]

Think about this,the cat is there to clean up the emissions and is doing exactly that by turning CO and Hc into "Water Vapour" white smoke !

[voucht]

Yep Paul, you're totally right :) It makes me more confident in the fact that my engine could actually be OK. But I want to be 100% sure.

The block testers are really expensive here (£70!), but I could manage to have one lent by the local garage, I just have to pay for the fluid. So if everything goes fine, I'll do the test tomorrow, and I'll know for sure if the head and/or head gasket have problems.

The spare engine I found looks to be in a good condition if I refer to the pictures I received today, so the alternative is ready anyway!

Thanks again for the help.

[flyerncle]

Hope so Sylvain,get the garage to check in the header tank for HC is the quickest way to test for HG failure with gas anyalyser.

[voucht]

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/11947279605_f7714200f0_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/99498333@N06/11947279605/)
2014-01-14_12-39-35 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/99498333@N06/11947279605/) par Voucht71 (http://www.flickr.com/people/99498333@N06/), sur Flickr


Pretty yellow isn't it?... one word to say: merde :mad:

So... it looks like I need to buy another engine...

And icing on the cake: my third radiator is leaking too, I just can't believe it! There should be a problem with the pressure in my cooling circuit!

Before I start the test, I removed a bit of coolant from the expansion tank as it is required. But while I was performing the test, water came up, and up, and up in the expansion tank, and I had to remove more than 1 litre along the way, otherwise, coolant was going into the tester (and I had to redo the test more than 5 times before it goes well)!

So, perhaps I had too much coolant, not enough air in the expansion tank, so the pressure in the circuit is too high and the radiator tubes brake? I'm using a Stant pressure cap which is 20-25lbs. It does not sound to me like a pressure a radiator can't take, but perhaps the problem come from there too.

Well, now, I'm so fed up, I just want to set fire to the car, the garage, the engine, along with all the tools, my working cloths, and perhaps to myself too :eek:

[flyerncle]

Take the easy route fix the car,the fire brigade will be harder to explain the fire too.

And as you say Mon Ami "Merde";)

Jai parlez francias Merde

[K4KEV]

We have all had issues to get around Sylvain but don't give up.....it was a nightmare for me by choosing an unusual engine, but I persevered and got there in the end....I know its a bummer just get stuck straight back in and dismantle the engine to try and see what the cause is, then if its knackered then at least you will have "created the next direction to go in .....a different engine.
chin up matey its all worth it in the end

[flyerncle]

Agreed,I have had a rolling chassis for the past 4 and a bit years and only now got round to getting it powder coated and putting it back together and still don't have the money to throw at it but I will not give up,retirement project maybe.

Kev if you get bored I still have a little project in mind that would not be too much hassle and wages if you are interested.

[danilo]

I do understand your frustrations.
But removing the cyl head to have a look for the problem (imo a broken head gasket) is only a couple of hours work.
And if it is the HG.... replacing it is only a minor repair in the scope of engine work.. and usually inexpensive for the parts required.

[Janne E]

Sylvian!

I got a Polo radiator with a electric fan mounted if you need..
It´s almost new.

Janne

[voucht]

Hi!
Sorry I have been away from the forum and the car for a couple of days... just to cool down I guess :)

Thank you very much for the nice words and cheering. I think sometimes, problems just look too big to get over, and you just need to back off from the build a little.

I still think that it is better to change this engine which, I just feel it, will give me more troubles in the future, even if I fix the head and head gasket.

But if sometimes all problems occur in the same time, it can be the same for good news too:

I've been looking for seats for the Roadster for a while, and having them delivered from the UK is always an extra cost for us I'd like to avoid, so I have been looking for a local solution. And someone here in Sweden proposed me, through the Swedish Locost forum, to exchange a pair of Cobra seats in very good condition against a full brake line set for his Caterham. That is quite a good deal, isn't it? And it turned out that this person also has a complete Sierra to strip off, and he is OK to give away the engine which looks to be perfectly working, with the two seats! Pretty cool, isn't it?

He is not leaving close by, so tomorrow I'll spend my day on the road driving there and back, to collect the seats and the engine.

The SFRO (Swedish IVA) inspector also told me that I can take the my first inspection with the old engine (they don't check the engine's working condition, this first inspection is more about the chassis construction, structure, mounting points, suspensions, etc.), and swap engines after the inspection, so I don't have any pressure about that.

It also looks like the fact that all the radiators I've installed so far (3 in total) were all leaking, is due to this head gasket and/or cylinder head failure: compression from the cylinders goes into the cooling circuit, punting it under a pressure the radiator can't take. I'll change the engine before I change radiator next time :p

So hopefully, before the end of this month, everything will be back to order, and I will have my seats too :)

Janne, thank you for the offer, I just sent you a personal message.

And thanks to all of you for the help and support. This forum is just great!

[jason 82]

Well done Sylvian, every cloud has a silver lining. I hope that your new engine is as strong as an ox ! Chin up mate. ;)

[flyerncle]

Sylvain,about the inspection,do you get it inspected and then paint/coat the chassis.

All your pictures are of plain metal and not even primer.

[voucht]

Yep Paul, that right. For the inspection, the chassis should not be painted, but it could be primed. But they don't want any weld to be ground off for the inspection, so it is pointless to prime the chassis if you have to grind the welds afterwards, before painting. At least that was my position.

That is the reason I wanted to take this inspection earlier this winter (I was ready in early December) , but our schedules with the inspector didn't match very well, so it had been postpone again and again.

After the inspection, I will completely strip off the car, and have the chassis, roll-bar, wishbones and rear uprights sandblasted. Then the same company will powder coat all these parts. It is a bit expensive, but I think worth it, as I'm not really well equipped and don't have a good place to paint it clean myself. It will be quicker and less a hassle too ;) And painting the chassis by-10°C and a lot of moist in the air like it will be in February will not give a good results I'm sure. So I chose to have it done externally.

There is not a lot of rust on the chassis though, I was expecting much more. When you know that it will be almost 3 years that I have started it, and it has been in quite cold and damp places during all that time (well, Sweden!), I'm quite surprise it is not more attacked by rust. The legendary Swedish steel quality I guess :)

You can't imagine how much I'm longing to reassemble the car definitely after the powder coating!

[flyerncle]

Makes sense now Sylvain,what a PITA to have to strip it down and start again.

I understand very well the weather causing you problems,I spent some time in northern Finland in the winter,3 hours drive north of the Arctic Circle not far from Mumansk.:eek:

[voucht]

Ha yes, where when the police makes an investigation, they ask you "What have you done during the night between the 25th of November and the 16th of March?" :D :D :D

Here, it is southern Sweden, so it is still OK, 7 hours of day time at the worst... but yes, weather is harsh for the Southern French I am!

[flyerncle]

I drove Le Camion in europe for a few years,why on earth go to Sweden from France del Sur ?:confused:

[davidimurray]

I'm using a Stant pressure cap which is 20-25lbs. It does not sound to me like a pressure a radiator can't take, but perhaps the problem come from there too.

I thought that 14psi was about normal? 14psi gives a boiling point of 119c whearas 20psi gives a boiling temp of 125c

[ayjay]

I drove Le Camion in europe for a few years,why on earth go to Sweden from France del Sur ?:confused:
I can imagine a very good reason--------------its blonde and sexy:D

[flyerncle]

I see your point ;)

Plenty of talent in France !

[voucht]

Yes, Adrian is right! I wake up every morning of my life next to the reason I'm now living in Sweden, and I'm the happiest of men :)

But we don't plan to stay in Sweden forever, and might move back to France or another warmer country within one or two years. And if I can get the Roadster registered there, it will be so good to drive it in the southern France weather!

Well, I drove 600km in the day yesterday, and came back with a pair of nice Cobra seats. Unfortunately, we could not take the DOHC out of his Sierra, so no engine so far... I think I'm going to buy the one I saw at the scrap yard, but will do that only after the inspection, next month.

I thought that 14psi was about normal? 14psi gives a boiling point of 119c whearas 20psi gives a boiling temp of 125c

Yes, I have been stupid enough to use one of these high pressure radiator caps we use on racing cars. It was the only one available when I ordered my parts from France last year, and I should have waited. The purpose of these high pressure caps is too keep the cooling system under a higher pressure, because the higher the pressure is, the better the calories exchange is. But the whole circuit has to be planed for this pressure, and it was certainly too high for my system/engine/radiator. Perhaps the head gasket broke just because of this actually, and I think you should have a reinforced head gasket when you use this kind of high pressure radiator caps.

So, I will definitely go back to a lower pressure cap, same pressure as the one originally used with the Sierra DOHC.

Thanks.

[flyerncle]

You have just been unlucky Sylvain,colling system will stand much more pressure than the cap say's or they would be bursting more regular if they got slightly over the rating of the cap.

I have noticed cap pressure's have risen and a lot of cars do have high pressure systems and as you rightly say the heat transfer is better and the boil point raised.I suspect its all to do with emissions and better combustion.

[snapper]

Would suggest head gasket
When white smoke stops water level has dropped below gasket level
Eventually all water would go as it turned to steam