Doesn't anybody use arc welding any more?

[Enoch]

Just curious really. I always use arc on anything 1.5mm and over cos I think it gives better penetration and therefore more strength than mig. What are your thoughts?

[gingea1pom]

Don’t do it.

I do believe this can of worms has been opened before.:D

[HandyAndy]

Don’t do it.

I do believe this can of worms has been opened before.:D

:D
Enoch....
has been discussed a few times & has created some "interesting" points of view :eek:
you can of course do the arc welding if thats what you prefer etc but most go for mig welding.

sits back & awaits responses :D

andy

[londonsean69]

TBH the penetration on both MIG and MMA is the same up to about 5mm (with the right kit). IMO of course. And certainly, for the majority of the chassis and plates (1.6mm and 3mm) I very much doubt there would be much to choose between them. I do stand to be corrected though.

It is easy to have a MIG weld that looks nice, but has no pen.

MIG is easier for people to learn.

Stick can be a bit 'fierce' for thinner stuff, although, it is possible in the right hands, with a decent MMA kit.

A cheap MMA kit can be had for a lot less than a MIG.

No gas rental with MMA

Horses for courses, but, on thin stuff like we use for 95% of the chassis and plates, MIG would be my first choice everytime.

I never really got on with stick in the past, and treated myself to a nice MIG, so that is what I use.
I am looking at a nice MMA set (possibly a Lorch:D), but TBH I don't really have a use for one, so it would just gather dust.

Both processes have their place, as does TIG (I want one of those too, but it's only to do the tank:rolleyes: ) but I have almost always regarded MMA as a more 'industrial' process, structural steelwork, beefy gates, outdoor work.
Although, on a visit to a steel fabricators for work, they were MIG'ing everything upto about 20mm thick, just doing multipass.
I asked why, their answer;
Faster and cheaper

[Talonmotorsport]

Has any body seen series on discovery about 'mega factories' I remember the Catepillar plant where they cast the chassis in solid steel 24 inches plus thick in 4-6 bits then MIG the whole thing together with 9-10 inch weld preps :eek: bet that fella's not using 0.6 wire :rolleyes: ;)

[les g]

large rum and coke and xl popcorn please:p
let the debate begin
again :D
cheers les g

[HandyAndy]

large rum and coke and xl popcorn please:p
let the debate begin
again :D
cheers les g

just made a large coffee;)

cheers
andy

[Talonmotorsport]

TBH it does'nt matter what you use to weld the chassis together with as long as it ends up being strong, within a few mm of it's intended design and straight. Besides if you end up making a complete hash of it ( a few from here have, don't worry lads your secret is safe with me ;) ) you can always buy one pre welded :rolleyes: shamefull plug over......

[ACE HIGH]

Enoch,look up recent(last 2/3 months) discussions on this one.
If you are already a competent arc welder then arc welding is in my view the best and cheapest way to go.
Regarding Caterpillar tractors,I am a little out of date these days but there are at least 4 different MIG welding systems and they probably use "globular transfer" which is NOT the same as your ordinary MIG home system.
I used it over 40 years ago and thick plates melt like butter.but go back and look up past discussions on this,lots of good info and a few good laughs as well!!! David:D

[Bonzo]

Has any body seen series on discovery about 'mega factories' I remember the Catepillar plant where they cast the chassis in solid steel 24 inches plus thick in 4-6 bits then MIG the whole thing together with 9-10 inch weld preps :eek: bet that fella's not using 0.6 wire :rolleyes: ;)

He wouldn't be using .6mm wire..........But then, he ain't welding 1.6mm tube is he !!??

Honestly Tallon you can be a complet knob at times :mad:

[Enoch]

Ok, didn't realise this had already been done to death:( I was just curious as in all the build reports and stuff that I have read everybody seemed to be using mig. I have never used mig but would call myself reasonably good with arc welding. I guess I will stick to what I am fairly good at rather than learning a new skill. If it all goes pear shaped I will deny it ever happened:)
Best to all,
Enoch

[Talonmotorsport]

He wouldn't be using .6mm wire..........But then, he ain't welding 1.6mm tube is he !!??

Honestly Tallon you can be a complet knob at times :mad:

Well pardon me for having a sense of humour. Sorry I forgot this forum was for serious discussion only. :( :confused:

[les g]

Personally.....
i find the best type of " GLOBULAR TRANSFER " happens when my missus has been drinkind rum cocktails..................:rolleyes:

oh and that was naughty Ronnie
pointy hat and in the corner for you for the rest of the day.....:(

Talon was that the episode where the guy said " all my life dreamed of getting on the chassis welding side in this factory " gosh what great aspirations..........:eek:

cheers les g

[Land Locked]

I've been practicing my stick welding recently. I now produce fairly good welds on 1.6mm wall material with a 3.15mm rod on 140A, which I could never do in the past. The only thing to be careful of is blowing holes which happens with GREAT ease if the bits being welded together have anything more than a 1mm gap. It does however seem a bit barbarian to be using such a high setting and thick rod on such thin material.

Normally I would have used a 2mm rod on around 90A. That was fine for gates n such, but it did really lack penetration.

That said I am hoping to get my DC inverter early in the new year.

[Bonzo]

I must apologise if some of the folk reading this thread are confused or perhaps think that my comments were out of order !!

To clear up any confusion, i'll give you a brief history of the reason as to why I have reacted as i have.

Quite some time ago ( About the same time as the great forum meltdown ) a new forum member invited comments on the subject of welding.

I posted in this thread, thinking that this member would appreciate some constuctive commet from a welder with over 30 years experience in all forms of welding.

As this user was using a hobby MIG of low'ish power. I made the sugestion that he tried using .6mm wire.

The advice to use .6mm wire did not go down too well with some of the forum members. It contradicted the .8mm recommendation in the book !!

Now, I don't mind being told that I am wrong .............but what I can't stand, is being told that I am wrong without the technical reason as to why !!

What hurt me the most is that not one single forum member came to my defence or offered any technical reason as to why I was wrong ??

I vowed from that day on, never to offer advice or comment on any topic concerned with welding.

This brings me back to the subject of my reaction to comment made in this thread.

Quoted bellow is the part of the post that caused me personal offence.

Not particularly bothered about the comment, just the way it was noted !! .

I saw this as a sly personal dig & aimed squarely in my direction ( Not the for the first time either ) :(




bet that fella's not using 0.6
wire :rolleyes: ;)


If any of you chaps feel that my comments were out of order, then please accept my appologies.

I for one, would hate to see this forum decend to the same level as so many tend too :eek:

EDIT

Just checked the thread, one person did come to my defence.................. Sorry about that Paul, how could I forget that, must be geting a bit senile ??

[Enoch]

Bonzo, I was wondering what that was all about:confused:
Thanks for your input, I'm a bit of a novice where welding is concerned and just wanted to do a sanity check with people that have probably fogotten more than I have ever known on the subject. I'm an electronic engineer by trade and only taught myself to weld a couple of months back.
Now, let's all play nicely, breathe deeply and slowly and don't forget to bury the bodies of the people that failed to bring you chocolate:)
Enoch.

[Talonmotorsport]

Bonzo CHILL mate it's not worth it.

[RAYLEE29]

Hey Ronnie ill get your back, if said welder produces a better weld with 0.6 then use it.
my opinon for what its worth is that the majority of chassis are put together with mig theres a reason for that
its easier quicker and produces good results
if you want to tig or mma then do it but dont moan to me about how long it took
I also believe that a migged chassis distort less than a tigged one
I think either westfied or caterham mig their chassis thats good enough recommendation for me
eagerly awaiting all kinds of flak
Ray:)

[squbti]

Hi Bonzo, i have to say you make some very good points there. We are all here to ask for or to give advice & it should be appreciated & taken for what its worth but should not be personal or taken to heart .Between the lot of us on this forum there is truly a great wealth of knowlge & experience & it would truly be a shame to stop participating & giving advice because of some coments or disagreements. So hang in there mate.:) :)
cheers
samy

[Bonzo]

Thanks for the kind words chaps :o

The point I was trying to put across in the earlier thread was this :

When using a small hobby mig, the use of .6mm wire may be beneficial in producing a neater weld bead at lower amperage on thin gauge steel such as the chassis tubes.

My own commercial set will produce a neat full penetration weld on quite a low setting with the use of .6mm wire

Yes for shure. The book does indeed recommend the use of .8mm wire.
Perhaps this recommendation was made with direct reference to having the use of a larger, commercial mig welding plant.

Perhaps the arguement could have been taken one stage further. !!??

Why not use 1.0mm or even 1.2 wire ?
After all, the last place I worked made heavy use of sheet metal and was used in the manufacture of industrial compressors.
Some of the compressor canopy's were quite intricate with complex bends & welded joints ( Mainly butt welds )
The most common gauge metals were 1.2mm & 1.6mm thick although some of the components used .8mm & 1.0mm gauge !!

My point is ??
All of the welding booths were kitted out with hulking great Three phase BOC Murex Transmig's.
The factory didn't even stock .8mm wire !!?? Only 1.0mm & above , more often than not the welding plant in the booth would have a roll of 1.2mm wire loaded.
Being a lazy git, this would be what was used. Happy to do so & still produce quality work. ;)


Right thats that off my chest :D


Back to the original topic of this thread

With the advent of the home hobby MIG welder, the good old stick welder is more or less consigned to the ark.

MIG welding has a fair few advantages over the MMA process.

More versatile on the multi positional welds needed, good gap filling properties, no slag removal, less heat distortion, less chance of weld undercut, Quicker, the list could go on and on really.

In my personal view, MIG welding by far the easiest form of welding to learn, I have yet to find a student that I could not teach to a competent standard in a relatively short period of time.

Having said all of that.

If I were on an incredibly tight budget, had the use of a decent stick welder & didn't want to blow most of my money on an item that is most likely going to be used for the one job only !!??

Yes I would use a stick welder in the blink of an eye ( Probably go for 2mm wall tube though ) :)

[ACE HIGH]

Enoch,with arc welding,keep all gaps to 25 thous or less,this is easy to achieve and you will become a very good fitter real fast if you keep to that standard,also bevel each join where possible to 50%.
Use 2.5 mm (14 swg) rods or smaller,usually general purpose say GP 6012 or similar.
If possible try to get some 2mm (if available),shop around,they used to be sold under the names of mirrorcraft/satincraft.
If its possible to rotate the chassis for final welding,(a rotating engine stand for each end will speed up the build ) then you can with general purpose rods use the vertical down technique and produce very high quality welds,you will surprise yourself how neat they will be.Use your left hand to steady the rod as you come down.
And this applies to ALL welding and gas cutting(especially gas cutting):Dont hold your breath welding,common mistake,learn to relax and breath normally.
Final finishing,remove ALL slag,tidy up with a disc grinder and round the sharp weld edges with a 1/4 or 5/16 chainsaw file these larger saw files are not generally stocked by chainsaw dealers so a 3/16 will do OK.
AND AGAIN! 25 thous,the approx thickness of a hacksaw blade is the max gap to have on all types of fit ups on these thin sections,it will soon become 2nd nature to achieve and will stop you from trying with MIG or Arc to fill gaps due to sloppy workmanship.
Arc welding is cheap,fast and very strong on these tubes once you learn how.
Give it a go!David:D

[ACE HIGH]

When you use the vertical down technique come down at 30/45 degrees.David:D

[ACE HIGH]

Landlocked,try 2.5 mm at 90/110 amps,and see if you can get 2mm.
I would not weld these thin tubes with 3mm.
I have done 1mm panel steel with 14/16 guage rods years ago.
Has any one had any experience with alloy arc welding rods?
they are being sold over here as "allyarc",I have never tried them but when next in town will buy some if they are not for DC welders ,mine are AC.David:)

[Land Locked]

David, I have 2mm, 2.5mm and 3.15mm in stock as they're all freely available here. (6013)

My foray into the 3mm rod on 1.6 wall material was accidental as in I only had 3mm rods on site and was so close to finished that I refused to drive anywhere at all to get thinner ones. I was surprised at how easy it was to make good hole free welds. I do however agree that one should go down to 2.5 or 2mm. My only concern being not quite the penetration I wanted with the thin rods and bumping the current up just made holes.

The ally rods are good but you MUST get the weld area cleaner than clean. I really can't stress the prep enough.

Regards
Johan

[Enoch]

Thanks David and Johan, appreciate your input. I bought a big load of 2.5mm rods that are the business, they start and maintain the arc really well. I bought the welder from a car boot sale, it has some rods with it but they were really tricky to use, I nearly gave up. Then I thought if I bought a big load of rods that were all the same it would make learning a lot easier. I bought a big bix of scrap steel of thicknesses from about 1.5mm up to about 4mm and set about practicing. First couple of sessions were an absolute disaster but then I started getting the hang of it. Best thing I did was get rid of the hand held face shield and bought one of those automatic helmets, it made so much difference and so much easier to strike the arc. It's variable so you can set it so you get a better view of the weld pool. I will practice a bit more before I start the chassis, just so I go in to it with ahigh level of confidence.
Thanks again folks, happy building

[ACE HIGH]

Thanks Enoch and Johan.Johan will try the alloy rods.
Some more tips;
If you have an air compressor buy a needle scaler,looks like a pistol with about 12 x 3mm high tensile rods makes a hell of a noise and rattles away getting rid of slag real quick,a miracle in the corners of say angle iron at (90) degrees,will be real useful for MIG welding also as it gets into the corners for getting rid of rust ,great tool ,about $100 NZ.
And while you are at it get an air riveter,great tools,about $100 NZ for a Chinese one,I would pay extra for a name brand about $200 NZ.
And also a Bosch top of the line jigsaw with genuine Bosch blades,then you will never need a gas set again except for!;
next purchase! A LPG propane gas set around $500 NZ with a BBQ bottle $45 NZ (much cheaper if you allready have a gas set,just buy tips)from your local big box shop,you will never need to hire another bottle.
Now I know I have just spent a lot of your money for you,
BUT you never paid $2000 NZ to buy a quality MIG set,no need to shag around with bottles and hireage and cost of gas and you now have some good tools to really speed things along.
Arc welding these tubes will always be strong enough,your main problem will be blowing through,you will soon sense when this will happen,your auto helmet will allow you to stop/start and the weld will look a bit like a oxy/acetelene weld if its not one of your best efforts,so,grind/wire brush it and go over(vertical down again ) to tidy it up.
Always start the rod on the earth and immediately go straight to the work so you start up with a "hot rod",also learn the technique of "starting both ends and meeting in the middle',and avoiding burning out the ends when finishing(common MIG fault also.)
Now time to rattle the bags of popcorn!!! (Stir,stir)
MIGs main advantage is that unskilled workers could be employed to mass produce cheap high volume products that could be sold quickly before the shiny paint fell off and the warranty ran out.
The above comment IS NOT directed at those on this Forum or anywhere else who run quality reputable businesses,MIG is clearly the best system for you to use.
Try building a 30/40 foot yacht/launch out in the rain and wind with MIG,you will soon find that old fashioned arc welding is not so obsolete after all.
And for the member who is using the "globular transfer method at home",probably not a good idea to hold your breath using that technique as you may well implode and blow your brains out! Dont try that at home folks! David

[Enoch]

Thanks again chap!! I have a fairly well equipped workshop including 2 lathes, milling machine, band saw, welder, bench vice, air compressor with various tools, measuring kit etc. A mate of mine has a very large pipe bender that will manage the roll bar, only thing I don't have access to is a guilotine and a sheet bender. I might well get a needle scaler, I didn't think of that. By starting the rod on the earth I assume you mean building some carbon on the end of the rod? I have found this makes it a hell of a lot easier to strike, new rods are that little bit harder.
That's an intersting technique of starting at the ends, when I was learning I found that every time I got to the end of a weld it would burn a bit of the edge away. I kind of got round it by being careful to not over run and to pull back a bit at the end of the run. Your technique sounds better to me so thanks for that.
God, I'm glad I found this place :)

[ozzy1]

We use 16TC (2.5mm) rods at work on anything from 1.5mm upwards with no problems and this is usually structural stuff as its a minesite,really its just about getting the amps correct and practising on the same material as what you will be welding.

[ACE HIGH]

Enoch,google sheet benders they are easy to make ,there will be plans on the net,use diy,homebuilt,and the yanks often use the term "homebrew" for diy.like ozzie says ,in the end it comes down to practice.
The main reason for starting the arc with a hot rod is that with practice you will start in the exact position real quick and make a neat job.Dont forget to use a gloved left hand to hold the rod about 40/50 mm from the arc end when it suits you ,eg vertical down.
A guillotine may be expensive and hard to make,the bosch jigsaw may well substitute,if you find a site for a homemade guillotine let us all know!They are very expensive to buy.
Also,not widely known but there is a small electric tool called a carpet cutter,has a roller on it,it will cut light alloy sheet very well indeed.These are not expensive if you can find one these days.Mine is a Black and Decker.

No I would not be without my needle scaler,its a real bonus,worth every cent! David :D

[Bonzo]

I must agree, sick weldding still has a place in the right eviroment.

Shipyard or perhaps in the field where shielding the weld area from the eliments is either impossible or impractable :)

Ark welding is more tolerant of rust, paint & other impuritys, as any shipyard or plant repairer will tell you.

That said, my local dry dock ( Former employee ) is now making extensive use of mig welders for general repairs.
When I was last working there in the late 80's, they didn't have a single mig welder :eek:
Mind you one of the last dry docks in the country to be using rivets :eek:

Back to the subject of stick welding.

difficult slag removal can somtimes be an indication of weld undercut. This occurs when the edges of the weld bead penetrates the parent metal too deeply & leave a small crater. ( Main culprits are too many amps or poor technique ).
Under cut is very undesireable & is seen as a structural weakness

The slag more often than not will peel off as the weld cools, choice of electrode also makes a difference.
The slag on some non-rutile electrodes can be a real pain to remove.

When you strike an arc do it a couple of centimetres upwind of the direction that you are intending to go, when the arc has fully established slowly move to your start point. don't worry about splatter, the welding arc will soon burn that out of the way. This way, you will eliminate the risk of slag inclusion at the weld start point.

Yes, at the end of the weld, just draw back a couple of mm & pause for a second or so, that'll fill the crater at the end of the weld . Not needed if you are simply changing for a new electode.