2.0 zetec black top

[degmwilliams]

If i was to use a 2.0 zetec with bike thottle bodies what other parts of a mondeo would i need? Would i be able to just buy a engine or would the whole car be better? Im going to fit it to a mt75 gearbox, any help would be great thanks.

[degmwilliams]

anyone please?

[adrianreeve]

Really, the engine is the only useful part. If you're going bike carbs, then you cant use the ecu, so I'd go for just an engine. Obviously, if you can hear it running first, so much the better, but low mileage, and lack of cack in the oil cap should be a fairly good indicator of condition.

HTH

Adrian

[Big Vern]

Black top Zetec will not go through the IVA without a catalyst and to ensure that it works properly you'll need to keep the ECU wiring and injection system from the donor car so bike carbs/throttle bodies won't work. There are also issues with the Built in anti theft systems which can make using a black top a pain.
Go in search of a good pre '95 silver top - there are plenty cheap ones around now and that can be run on bike carbs/megajolt ign.

Simples:D BV.

[degmwilliams]

The reason i wanted the black top was because of the sump being easier to alter with having a steel bottom. If i wanted to still use the black top could i just fit the standard injection and ecu until after the IVA?

[Big Vern]

The black top sump is part cast ally and part steel. It's not compatable with type 9 gerabox/starter but you can replace it with the earlier silver top sump or a CVH sump.

You WILL need to run a catalyst and you'll need this and the stock injection/ecu for your annual MOT which will be tested to post '95 requirements - your mot emissions test is determined at the IVA test and is based on the age of your engine. A pre '95 engine should not need a catalyst and the mot emissions are easier to get through.

As for the standard injection and ecu - the throttle body will stick out through the top of the bonnet so it's not exactly ideal for the HR, also the passive anti-theft system is routed through several other items in the donor vehicle which, to ensure the anti-theft system is secure, there is no published information, so basically you don't know what parts of the donor car you'll need. eg. you'll need one of the front headlights (for sure this was the case on transit vans!), bracelet from the ign switch, instrument pack, clock unit, fuse box and probably one or two more items depending on model, they must all come from the same donor vehicle as each one is coded.

The money you save by using the black top just because you have it is outweighed by the complication using it could bring, especially as zetec engines are pretty cheap these days.

If your up for a challenge then by all means try it - it has been done but it's not simple and a reprogram of your ecu by a ford main dealer isn't cheap!

HTH BV.

[degmwilliams]

I dont have the engine yet, so if i was to go with the silver top would there be any issues then with what i said in the first post?

[Big Vern]

You'll want the engine. Not really worth getting a whole car.
I've not done a zetec to MT75 before there could be issues with the clutch.

BV.

[degmwilliams]

Could i buy any silver top zetec or will the IVA know what age the engine is? Also did the mondeo come out without a cat?
There are some silver tops on ebay but most dont have what age they are.

[spud69]

When you go for your IVA one of the first things VOSA will ask you to do is to prove the age of the engine, by markings or log book. If he's in any doubt over your engine age he'll subject you to the strictest emissions test. Think they are probably sick of people trying it on getting pre-cat tests on their cars.

The easiest process is to get the car IVA'd with a pre-95 block in then upgrade the power house afterwards - MOT man is highly unlikely to check engine age. Will cost a lot more money to go CAT route.

AndyH

[degmwilliams]

Couldnt i just use the black top with gsxr1000 bodies, megajolt and when its iva time just fit a cat for the test, iv read the car will work with a cat, but it will soon get damaged due to too much fuel. There isnt much of a selection of silvertops old enough not to need a cat with low miles.

[HandyAndy]

Couldnt i just use the black top with gsxr1000 bodies, megajolt and when its iva time just fit a cat for the test, iv read the car will work with a cat, but it will soon get damaged due to too much fuel. There isnt much of a selection of silvertops old enough not to need a cat with low miles.

There is nothing wrong in having a "cat" fitted for when you take the IVA test, other than that when its time for the cars MOT then the car will ALWAYS be tested on emissions at the more stringent / tougher to pass level , so at each MOT you would have to refit the "cat" ,

also , even if you change the engine after passing the IVA with a cat, you will still need to pass the stricter emissions test, as the "age" of the engine as fitted at IVA time stays with the car for life.

But, nothing at all stopping you fitting a cat .

cheers
andy

[Coozer]

Blacktop sumps are suitable for mating to a type 9, there is small mod to some of the ribs on the side for clearance but apart from that nothing else.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn126/ridler123/General/PB0600022-1.jpg

Escort 1.8 silvertop is the way to go, pre Aug 95 and you don't need a cat. Problem with using a newer engine is the emmision targets, the newer they are the tighter and they are on the log book so you need to satisfy them at every MOT.

Pre 95 is the slackest, apart from a Q plate which is just a visible smoke test. That way you can use as new an engine as you like.

[Big Vern]

Q plate are only visible smoke pre SVA. All those that have gone through the SVA, have emissions based on age of donor vehicle or age of engine if not from the donor which is the likely reason for Q plate reg.
For IVA, emissions is related to age of engine only not age of donor.

HTH BV.

[martin62]

Q plate are only visible smoke pre SVA. All those that have gone through the SVA, have emissions based on age of donor vehicle or age of engine if not from the donor which is the likely reason for Q plate reg.
For IVA, emissions is related to age of engine only not age of donor.

HTH BV.

Hi Big Vern In Ireland once you have a new chassis you get a 2010 reg no matter what doner you have,they then charge you 36% vrt on what they value the car at .At the moment I am trying to reg a book locost which has 1.3 xflow which would end up very expensive due to emissions law so am thinking of putting a zetec and ecu

[Big Vern]

Hi Martin,

Yes I'd heard its painful on the wallet in Ireland:(

It's not that bad here - yet! but I think it'll probably go that way here in the end:mad: at least with the engines ie cheaper tax for modern engine with cat etc.

BV

[degmwilliams]

Would a 2.0 blacktop out of a mondeo automatic work? I know id need a flywheel and clutch and might need a bearing for the gearbox shaft, but would there be any thing else?

[Big Vern]

As said previously if you use the black top you'll need the cat set up ALL the time as you need it for the MOT every year, and if you get pulled for a roadside check, it's not just for passing the IVA!
Unless you use something from one of the major aftermarket engine management systems, like emerald, then you'll not have a tune that will work with a catalyst as the engine management needs to update (adapt) as you drive. Megasquirt can't do this so it's not suited to a cat system.
There are loads of pre '95 silvertops going pretty cheap so it would cheaper than the cat set up just to go and get a silver top - from £50 at most salvage yards and Ebay.

BV.

[baz-r]

Unless you use something from one of the major aftermarket engine management systems, like emerald, then you'll not have a tune that will work with a catalyst as the engine management needs to update (adapt) as you drive. Megasquirt can't do this so it's not suited to a cat system.
BV.

since when?
megasquirt will run a lambda or wideband and can be setup to run a cat.

any of the after market systems have to be setup/tuned to suit
so what ever make you go for it need calibrating by your self or paying some one in the know

it is also worth noting that cat test are only carried out on idle and light load (reving with no load)
most std manigment systems only run closed loop at idle up to cruse not under load

[degmwilliams]

so really then the black top can be used, but might be a little tricky? I would much prefer to use the black top, and have just bought one with only 46000 miles.

[Big Vern]

On the contrary Baz,
Having spent 25 years working with the OEM systems to meet performance,economy and emissions targets set by legislation, the OEM systems are very complex and work closed loop at most of the operating conditions these days.
Autotune for the megasquirt system is pretty clunky and does not have any way of updating the VE and ignition tables properly while driving and the updating has to be saved and burned to the megasquirt memory. Not really the same system used by the major aftermarkets or OEM.
While it is true you are only tested at idle and 'fast idle' unless the system is mapped and runs the engine properly all the time the cat will be ruined by the time of the next MOT.
All this adds considerable cost which is way more than the cost of a cheap pre'95 zetec to get through the IVA with then you can put in what ever lump yo want - no cat reqd.:D :D
BV.

[transverse]

Hi Big Vern In Ireland once you have a new chassis you get a 2010 reg no matter what doner you have,they then charge you 36% vrt on what they value the car at .At the moment I am trying to reg a book locost which has 1.3 xflow which would end up very expensive due to emissions law so am thinking of putting a zetec and ecu

Hi Martin,
welll done on getting this far.
I looked into this with the vro in Cork. As you say VRT is based on the engine stated co2 emissions of the engine used at the time of registration. The CO2 figure of the engine comes from the donor vehicle's conformity is used for the kitcar.

Fit a cheap 1.2 8v punto engine (only in Band B), 16% VRT and and road Tax of €156/year for registration.

From revenue.ie
"From a Vehicle Registration Tax point of view, the Certificate of Conformity states that the vehicle at the date of manufacture has a specific level of CO2 emissions. This is the level that will be used for taxation purposes and will not change regardless of post-production modifications that might be made, modifications that might either increase or decrease the levels of emissions of the vehicle"

so drop in whatever you like after that!

If by any chance you can benefit from scrappage, this will wipe €1500 of the vrt bill, which means only a few quid to register it full stop and no nct for 4 years!

best of luck,
Steve

[martin62]

Hi Martin,
welll done on getting this far.
I looked into this with the vro in Cork. As you say VRT is based on the engine stated co2 emissions of the engine used at the time of registration. The CO2 figure of the engine comes from the donor vehicle's conformity is used for the kitcar.

Fit a cheap 1.2 8v punto engine (only in Band B), 16% VRT and and road Tax of €156/year for registration.

From revenue.ie
"From a Vehicle Registration Tax point of view, the Certificate of Conformity states that the vehicle at the date of manufacture has a specific level of CO2 emissions. This is the level that will be used for taxation purposes and will not change regardless of post-production modifications that might be made, modifications that might either increase or decrease the levels of emissions of the vehicle"

so drop in whatever you like after that!

If by any chance you can benefit from scrappage, this will wipe €1500 of the vrt bill, which means only a few quid to register it full stop and no nct for 4 years!

best of luck,
SteveHi Steve thanks for the info.On checking with vro and ikcc vro would want to give me a 2010 reg because its a new chassis which they would probably put a value of approx 10,000 euro and beacause the engine is 30 years old and no emmisions figures you are put in to the higest emmisions bracket of 36% which means 3600 vrt.That done you go to tax it and because you are in the high emmisions band road tax comes to just over 2100 euro.It just happens that I have the tax book of the doner car in my name and it will be 30 years old in june,I will tax it in june as a classic 50 euro and will insure it as a kit car through the ikcc insrance scheme for 800 euro.So roll on june.In the meantime I hope to keep building my haynes roadster and pick up a good few bits in Stoneligh in may as I am going over for the weekend again with my tin top so I can bring back some bits,cant bring much on ryanair.

[baz-r]

On the contrary Baz,
Having spent 25 years working with the OEM systems to meet performance,economy and emissions targets set by legislation, the OEM systems are very complex and work closed loop at most of the operating conditions these days.
Autotune for the megasquirt system is pretty clunky and does not have any way of updating the VE and ignition tables properly while driving and the updating has to be saved and burned to the megasquirt memory. Not really the same system used by the major aftermarkets or OEM.
While it is true you are only tested at idle and 'fast idle' unless the system is mapped and runs the engine properly all the time the cat will be ruined by the time of the next MOT.
All this adds considerable cost which is way more than the cost of a cheap pre'95 zetec to get through the IVA with then you can put in what ever lump yo want - no cat reqd.:D :D
BV.

i agree
i was saying it is possible with megasquirt1 as i have a friend with a sylva running a 2l silver top that will pass a cat test every year and has no trouble
mind you he does work in a garage and has a gas anlyser to set it up on :rolleyes: but did do it all him self
as long as the fuel mix is not too far of the cat will take it
my bmw motorbike runs a cat and i have remaped it to run open loop all the time but when i check the gasses in closed loop it still works
saying that cat tec has got a load better since thay first came out

[Big Vern]

Hi Baz,
Yeh its not impossible just a lot of faff and extra expence which could be avoided. There's enough to deal with getting the car through the IVA without the added complication of the cat and engine management.
It also helps to have some understanding of what is needed when 'tuning' the engine management as there have been a number of posts on LCB over the last year where people have blown their engines up:eek: A little knowledge being dangerous and all that...

BV:)