Pinto EFI to carbs

[dogwood]

After spending all day sosiging around with the EFI electrics
on my 2.0 Pinto, and not getting a spark, nore nuffin
I'm almost at the stage of giving up on it.

So question:
I have a Weber carb on a Pinto manifold, From my 1800.
Can I do a straight swop from the injection system to the Weber?
At least I know how to wire up the non injection system.

I havn't got time to go megajolt system,
So looking for a quick option....Stonleigh approching fast. :eek:

[frankie boy]

Hi David
There is no problem with the carb. My pinto was a injection. You can put the dizzy from the 1.8 and run it standard.

There are some cheap twin 40 webers on ebay. Take a look.:D

[twinturbo]

Has the pinto's engine loom been tampered with?

TT

[dogwood]

Has the pinto's engine loom been tampered with?

TT

Just a tad yes....:rolleyes:


I cut and shut the wires to make them fit.
Think my joints are all good, but I just cant follow a wiring diagram.
Spent all day trying to get a spark.
Trouble is, there are just sooooooo many wires from the black box.

I'm going to try again tomorrow but if I have no luck then I got to look for an easy answer.

So my main question at the moment is.
Can I just unbolt the fuel injection system and bolt on the weber?
(It's a downdraught. forget which one at the mo,)
I realise I cant use the fuel pump. is there a place to bolt on the mech one?

I've had a sherbert or to so may not make much sense at the mo ....hic.:rolleyes: ( Bad day, and fed up)

Arn't the dizzies the same 1800 and the 2.0...I've used the 1800 one coz it looked cleaner

[frankie boy]

Hi
You can put the pump from the 1.8 you will need the rod that pushes it. there is a blanking plate over the pump out-let.

[frankie boy]

Just a tad yes....:rolleyes:


I cut and shut the wires to make them fit.
Think my joints are all good, but I just cant follow a wiring diagram.
Spent all day trying to get a spark.
Trouble is, there are just sooooooo many wires from the black box.

I'm going to try again tomorrow but if I have no luck then I got to look for an easy answer.

So my main question at the moment is.
Can I just unbolt the fuel injection system and bolt on the weber?
(It's a downdraught. forget which one at the mo,)
I realise I cant use the fuel pump. is there a place to bolt on the mech one?

I've had a sherbert or to so may not make much sense at the mo ....hic.:rolleyes: ( Bad day, and fed up)

Arn't the dizzies the same 1800 and the 2.0...I've used the 1800 one coz it looked cleaner

Im not shore But do you think you mite need the key to go with the ECU.
My dads old sierra did.

[dogwood]

Im not shore But do you think you mite need the key to go with the ECU.
My dads old sierra did.

????? key?????

[frankie boy]

????? key?????


The key would have had an immobiliser in it. You would need to tape it to the top of the ECU.

[dogwood]

The key would have had an immobiliser in it. You would need to tape it to the top of the ECU.

Nope, no special key.
or anywere to tap anything in.

But thanks for the thought

[frankie boy]

Nope, no special key.
or anywere to tap anything in.

But thanks for the thought

HI Dave
I did mean the ignition key. The car would have come with two black keys and one red key. The black key had an immobilizer in the top. The red key was to reset it.

[twinturbo]

Sierras never came with transponder imobalisers.

I would find a good uncut loom.



Personaly I would rebuild the loom, but I do have diagrams and an idea what I am doing ;)

TT

[frankie boy]

Sierras never came with transponder imobalisers.

I would find a good uncut loom.



Personaly I would rebuild the loom, but I do have diagrams and an idea what I am doing ;)

TT

Im sorry TT but thay did have transponder imobalisers. Been a long time but my dads sierra had it. late pinto EFI.

[dogwood]

Personaly I would rebuild the loom, but I do have diagrams and an idea what I am doing ;)

TT

I have a diagram......Thats just confusing the issue....:D

I need the motor to be running by he weekend
to stay on track for Stonleigh.
So don't have time to spend ages on the injection system

I'm afraid I'm back to my original question.
Can I fit the Weber and manifold from my 1800 Pinto
straight onto the 2.0 and it run OK?

[frankie boy]

I have a diagram......Thats just confusing the issue....:D

I need the motor to be running by he weekend
to stay on track for Stonleigh.
So don't have time to spend ages on the injection system

I'm afraid I'm back to my original question.
Can I fit the Weber and manifold from my 1800 Pinto
straight onto the 2.0 and it run OK?

YES! It will be fine.

[twinturbo]

Im sorry TT but thay did have transponder imobalisers. Been a long time but my dads sierra had it. late pinto EFI.

The PATS transponder impobaliser system was introduced by ford after production of the sierra ended.

The 2.0I Pinto went out of production in 1989, 4 years before the end of sierra production.

There is no way a 2.0 Pinto would have had a Transponder Imobaliser, in fact by the time the last 2.0 Pinto Efi went out of production I am no sure any manufacturer had introduced mainstream transponder imobalisers intergrated with Keys.


Pats was intorduced 94/95 with the Mondeo, MK5 Escort, and Scorpio.


TT

[twinturbo]

In fact,

A 2.0EFI pinto would be a pre 90 spec, it would not even have the door operatesd alarm imobaliser of the 90 spec DOHC.

The only system fitted to these cars may be the ford optional remote alarm system which was very rare.



TT

[twinturbo]

I have a diagram......Thats just confusing the issue....:D

I need the motor to be running by he weekend
to stay on track for Stonleigh.
So don't have time to spend ages on the injection system

I'm afraid I'm back to my original question.
Can I fit the Weber and manifold from my 1800 Pinto
straight onto the 2.0 and it run OK?

I would say it would run, but the jetting will be wrong. Your still going to need to get it sparking too.

TT

[dogwood]

Your still going to need to get it sparking too.

TT

That should be the easy bit.
I'll just fall back on my old wiring diagram.
I can follow that......:D

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/muddypaws4x4/Picture285-1.jpg

[twinturbo]

Which module do you have?

TT

[twinturbo]

You should be able to get a spark from teh EFI's TFI module as long as it has power and ground.

on the TFI

Check there is +12v at the black
Check the brown is grounded

with those the engine should at least spark. and with a sniff of easy start it should fire.

TT

[dogwood]

Which module do you have?

TT

No idea..

I've got the one that came off the 1800.
And the stuff from the 2.0.

I just dont do leckytronix...:rolleyes:

[dogwood]

Sorry missed your second post.

Don't even know what the TFI IS....


Explain......SVP

[twinturbo]

The ignition amp module, oblong thing about 3x1 inches

[dogwood]

OK Im with ya now.

So does that work like the "Ign Modulel" in my diagram?

And the big silver box ( See I know all the techy terms)
Just control the fuel system?

[twinturbo]

More or lesssiy..

Unlike the ESC-2 on teh 1800 pinto the TFI has no idea about anything other than a distributor signal.

ESC2 gets vacume load data and can work out the spark timing.

TFI can't work out anything other that static spark timing on it's own. the TFi will spark at a preset timing interval if left to it's own devices. it does however relay the PIP ( Profile ignition Picup ) signal from the dizzy to the silver box ( the EEC-IV ECU) which process that data, combines it with the data from the coolant, air flow, air temperature and speed sensor. and then sends a SAW ( spark angle word ) back to the TFI to fine tune the spark, and at the same time controls the injectors.


Fuel injection of this era is very simple yet very effective. Modern systems are not vastly advanced, usualy just adding emissions control valves and sensors.

TT

[HandyAndy]

More or lesssiy..

Unlike the ESC-2 on teh 1800 pinto the TFI has no idea about anything other than a distributor signal.

ESC2 gets vacume load data and can work out the spark timing.

TFI can't work out anything other that static spark timing on it's own. the TFi will spark at a preset timing interval if left to it's own devices. it does however relay the PIP ( Profile ignition Picup ) signal from the dizzy to the silver box ( the EEC-IV ECU) which process that data, combines it with the data from the coolant, air flow, air temperature and speed sensor. and then sends a SAW ( spark angle word ) back to the TFI to fine tune the spark, and at the same time controls the injectors.


Fuel injection of this era is very simple yet very effective. Modern systems are not vastly advanced, usualy just adding emissions control valves and sensors.

TT

I remember the days of points & condensor, I could handle them :eek: :D
Good luck David :)

cheers
andy

[dogwood]

OK thanks TT.

Think I have a better idea now of what I'm looking for.

If there is no spark then it's the fault of the TFI.
And not the ECU, which is where I was looking.

So back to you earlier post.
If I check power and earth to the TFI is ok
and still no spark then its coil end not ECU end

If that is correct then I'll strip out the loom again.
And redo the TFI to coil and dizzy connections.
And ignore the ECU for the moment.


It's half past bedtime for me.
So logging off now.
But will log on again in the morning.
Then I can digest what you said with a clearer head.....:eek: :D

[twinturbo]

Yes..

As a start, short the coil -ve to ground manualy to induce a spark and test teh coil

TT

[Bonzo]

How's it going with your electrics David ?

Let's hope today has been a bit kinder to you mate :) :)

[dogwood]

How's it going with your electrics David ?

Let's hope today has been a bit kinder to you mate :) :)

Thank's for the thought mate, but not even close....:mad:
Wasted another day and still couldn't sort it.

So finaly given up on the bl**** injection stuff.
Refitted the Weber and 1800 wiring.
Had it firing up right off.

Main thing is, if it goes wrong at least I should be able to fix it.
If the injection stuff packs up I wouldn't even know where to start.

All I got to do now is get a manifold gasket.
The injection one ain't no good with the carb manifold.
Found one on Eblag so should be ok

Brings up a question for those that know:
The injection head has that oval/egg shaped inlet.
I will be OK with the round inlets on the carb manifold wont I??????

[Bonzo]

So finaly given up on the bl**** injection stuff.
Refitted the Weber and 1800 wiring.
Had it firing up right off.

Main thing is, if it goes wrong at least I should be able to fix it.
If the injection stuff packs up I wouldn't even know where to start.


Going to be in the same boat as you mate .... I am starting with the modern injection route .... Gonna be B*****d if it goes wrong at a later date :eek:
Could write all I know about injection systems on the back of a stamp :o

I assume the shape of the inlet ports on the injection head are all about air flow .... Being as you are using carb, I doubt there will be quite so much demand for such a smooth air flow.

You may find that the carb is a little under jetted for the extra 200cc though .... Guess you won't know the full efect until you give it a test drive mate ;)

[AshG]

dave when you come back bring the injection stuff and i will learn you how to do it :D

if you cant be bothered then im sure i can get you a session down ATSPEED on their rolling road to set the carb up proper so it dont go bang.

failing that i could always sort you a megajolt and bike carbs.

[Bonzo]

dave when you come back bring the injection stuff and i will learn you how to do it :D

if you cant be bothered then im sure i can get you a session down ATSPEED on their rolling road to set the carb up proper so it dont go bang.

failing that i could always sort you a megajolt and bike carbs.


Now there's an offer he can't refuse :D :D :cool:

[twinturbo]

EFi is simple.

I hate Carbs. That why I have fitted a Polo GT 1.3 Injection engine to our MK1 golf. I could not get it to run well all the time on the carb. 1st time I ran the EFi lump after a year out of a car it fired up and ran spot on.

TT

[dogwood]

Now there's an offer he can't refuse :D :D :cool:

Better beleive it....:D


Cheers Ash your a mate.
Did tell ya I don't do lektrix.....

I know the coil is OK coz getting a spark with the 1800 stuff.
I know the wiring is ok to the TFI thingy.
Coz I pulled it all apart and checked it with the digi.
So wondering if I bu*****d the black box.

[HandyAndy]

So wondering if I bu*****d the black box.

David.....

sorry mate but that statement has just had me in stitches :D :D

another long day, i,ll get my coat :o

glad you got the lecktrikery sorted :cool:

cheers
andy

[dogwood]

EFi is simple.

I hate Carbs. That why I have fitted a Polo GT 1.3 Injection engine to our MK1 golf. I could not get it to run well all the time on the carb. 1st time I ran the EFi lump after a year out of a car it fired up and ran spot on.

TT

Simple for you. I've spent 2 days on the bloody thing.
Just don't make sense why there is no spark.

Got a spark first hit with the 1800 stuff.
It's just a poz/neg and the 3 wires to the Halls....done!!
With the injection,I just got a mass of wires with no idea where they all go, or what they do

[dogwood]

glad you got the lecktrikery sorted :cool:
cheers
andy

Well not sorted, but certainly closer.
Defo think I need to use the old KISS (Keep it simple stupid)

[HandyAndy]

Well not sorted, but certainly closer.
Defo think I need to use the old KISS (Keep it simple stupid)

snap, like i said previously....points & condensor & I had a chance with it,

anything else & i,m baffled with leccy stuff :o :D

looking forward to seeing your car "again" David :)

cheers
andy

[dogwood]

looking forward to seeing your car "again" David :)

cheers
andy

Me to......:D
Getting fed up with looking at a garage full of bits.
Not one of my better ideas to do a rebuild.

[Davey]

"EFi is simple."

It better be, I've got a six pot 24 valver that I need to fabricate an inlet fanimold for to take three pairs of bike throttle bodies then set up an Emerald ECU to run the ignition and injection systems. Was planning on fully sequential injection but will probably go paired to start with and look at full sequential later.

D.

[dogwood]

second word, Q.. first word, Fu.....:eek:
Your a glutton for punishment aint ya....:D

[twinturbo]

There is no point realy going for sequential fueling.

TT

[HandyAndy]

second word, Q.. first word, Fu.....:eek:
Your a glutton for punishment aint ya....:D

:D Davey is talking a different language ain,t he? :eek:

cheers
andy

[Bonzo]

EFi is simple.


TT

So glad to hear you say that TT :D

When I got my replacement engine loom for my 1.8 Zetec engine I took the entire loom & ECU but had to cut half a dozen wires that went to the escorts fusebox :rolleyes:

I know one goes to the fuel pump & one goes to to the tacho but don't know where the rest go at the moment.

Guess who i'll be calling on when I come to wiring up the engine :D :D

[twinturbo]

you do need a loom diagram, or an ecu pinout mind....

TT

[Bonzo]

Hopefully TT things should be reasonably straight forward

Early 1.8 zetec Mk5 Escort 105ps engine .... The loom I removed was from an identical car of the same age.

All plugs intact & well labled, so far so good.

My intention at the moment is to hook it all up as standard, ECU and all

So with a little luck, the only wiring that I will have to play with, will be the few wires that I cut that entered the drivers side bulkhead/fuse box :)

Once the engine is running .... I'll have a play with the inlet plemum & make one that is a bit more bonnet friendly.

If it all goes tits up it'll be plan B, C or even D !! :D :D

[AshG]

dave bring all the efi bits back with you and i will bench test it.

[twinturbo]

Hopefully TT things should be reasonably straight forward

Early 1.8 zetec Mk5 Escort 105ps engine .... The loom I removed was from an identical car of the same age.

All plugs intact & well labled, so far so good.

My intention at the moment is to hook it all up as standard, ECU and all

So with a little luck, the only wiring that I will have to play with, will be the few wires that I cut that entered the drivers side bulkhead/fuse box :)

Once the engine is running .... I'll have a play with the inlet plemum & make one that is a bit more bonnet friendly.

If it all goes tits up it'll be plan B, C or even D !! :D :D

hopefully they will conform to standard ford colours ;)

TT

[Davey]

There is no point realy going for sequential fueling.

TT

I have to disagree I'm afraid. Full sequential injection properly set up will result in a smoother running engine, better starting and lower emissions coupled with better fuel economy. I'm not overly concerned about fuel economy as my personal annual average mileage for the last five years has been around 3k and much as I want to drive my Dragon I don't foresee it covering many miles but any saving of fuel is a good thing, not only for my pocket but for the planet too (no I'm not a tree hugger in disguise either:p ).

If sequential injection didn't give any significant benefits then mainstream manufacturers wouldn't waste money on it.

If you really want to see the benefits of complex sequential injection look no further than your average modern diesel car or van. The modern common rail diesel injection system obviously has to be sequential as its the fuel injection that starts combustion but most systems nowadays are giving three separate shots of fuel per cylinder per firing stroke, the latest generation Bosch and VDO systems are doing up to five squirts per firing stroke. The result of this is an incredibly smooth diesel engine that produces significant torque even at low engine speeds, coupled with a small turbo charger they don't even display any lag. fiat's latest 2.3 litre diesel is giving 160BHP and is as smooth as freshly pressed silk to drive.

D.

[dogwood]

dave bring all the efi bits back with you and i will bench test it.

Will do mate...Cheers.

Just got to find it though...
It's somewere in nextdoors garden....:eek: :D

[Bonzo]

Will do mate...Cheers.

Just got to find it though...
It's somewere in nextdoors garden....:eek: :D

Junior usually has to fetch my stuff from the corn field behind our place :D

Sorry for highjacking your thread mate :o

[aerosam]

Just a tad yes....:rolleyes:

Arn't the dizzies the same 1800 and the 2.0...I've used the 1800 one coz it looked cleaner

well there's your problem - no they are not the same. The pinto EFI system uses the spark timing as a datum point to time the injectors. Without the correct dizzy nothing works.

You should be ok with the carb manifold gasket on the injection head, but you may find it doesn't last long before it leaks at the top. (the reason the ports are egg shaped on the injection head is so the injectors can fire cleanly into the ports) If it does go fairly soo, fit 2 instaed, the extra thickness will give you a longer life.

[Big Vern]

Strictly speaking the Pinto EFi distributor is not really a distributor at all, its a crank sensor or at least thats its main function. Apart from its solid shaft and the rotor arm theres nothing else in it that moves. It sends a signal to the ECU which then uses clever logarythms to work out engine speed and tdc references for both ign and fuel. The ECU fires the coil and the cap and rotor arm supply the spark in the traditional way. Cant remember on these whether they are banked or parallel injection. (banked = pairs of injectors fire at the same time or parallel = all together).

If you have been trying to run EFi without the EFi dizzy then that would explain why it no go:D though I'm surprized you could wire it all up:confused:

1.6 or 1.8 breakerless or points will work with the carb set up you have. I've not had gasket problems though I've used the earlier manifold and 38 dgas carb.

HTH BV:)

[twinturbo]

A 1.8 Dizzy should have had ESC2 with just a pickup and HT distribution. May even be the same Part number as the 2.0EFi dizzy, I can check later.

TT

[Davey]

Just as a follow up to illustrate my last post have a look at this link:

http://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/hymer-car-motorhome-review.php?utm_source=freedom-motorhome&utm_medium=email&utm_content=speeding-hymer&utm_campaign=march2010&utm_content=happybonzo2002@yahoo.co.uk&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Recording%20breaking%20motorhome!%20F reedom%20Mar%20%2710

D.

[twinturbo]

dizzys for pinto sierra are

1.3
1.6
1.8 & 2.0
2.0 EFI


The 2.0 EFI has the TFI module bolted to the side ( although I am sure I have seen a picture of a remote TFI on a 2.0 pinto ?? )

TT

[dogwood]

Yup. Mine was bolted to the off side inner wing. Not to the dizzy.
As I said earlier, to me the 1800 and 2.0 dizzy looked identical.
Inside and out...

Not a great pic, but it's just below the headertank outlet
So you can imagine the length of the original wires I was dealing with...

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/muddypaws4x4/CLOCK004.jpg