Engine noise

[HandyAndy]

Today I have finished my exhaust down pipe & connected the silencer & fabricated a bracket to hold the silencer in place to the chassis,

So, I started her up, nice & quiet :cool:

Now thats its able to run with the full exhaust system in place I decided to let it get up to temp, which it did nicely........

BUT

Once it had warmed up I can now hear what I can only describe sounds like a "Tappet noise", even tho the CVH engine i,m using has Hydraulic valves etc,

So,,,,,,,,,whats this noise? any hints please?

I did the screwdriver trick to the ear from on top of the rocker cover & it sounds like its coming from number 3 cylinder ( from rad to cockpit counting) valve setup :confused:

any idea,s ?

By the way, the donor it came out of has a full service history with 92k genuine on the clock.
cheers
andy

[Enoch]

Hi Andy, I had a Jag used to do that if the oil was too thin. What grade have you got in it? Does it quieten back down when the engine cools?

[HandyAndy]

Hi Andy, I had a Jag used to do that if the oil was too thin. What grade have you got in it? Does it quieten back down when the engine cools?

wow that was quick :eek: :D

The oil is , I think 15/40 , tho I must say, when i,ve checked the oil it seems very thin, nice colour ( new oil ), correct level & I did check that my oil pick up pipe was collecting oil when I rebuilt the sump etc.

The noise isn,t there when the engine is cold / cool, it gets noisy the warmer the engine gets .

cheers
andy

[flyerncle]

Older engines ran on thicker oil so it may pay to change it ,they were prone to breaking valves springs but this would give a miss and its worth checking the cam lobes for wear.
If I remember rightly it ran ok before its last rights so possibly its oil related.

Edit see below

[HandyAndy]

Older engines ran on thicker oil so it may pay to change it ,they were prone to breaking valves springs but this would give a miss and its worth checking the cam lobes for wear.
If I remember rightly it ran ok before its last rights so possibly its oil related.

Edit see below

Thanks Paul,

what oil do you suggest please?

Yes, the donor car ran really well, When I collected it, I drove it home almost 200 miles & then 35 miles to you :D before it took its last gulp of go go juice for a while :D

I thought maybe something is sticking, as its the first time its been fully up to temp in 13 months.

I,ll change the oil & filter tomorrow :rolleyes:

cheers
andy

[twinturbo]

oooohhh.......

[twinturbo]

ahhhhh ... memories.....


TT

[HandyAndy]

oooohhh.......

You,re scaring me now TT :eek: :o :D

GULP

cheers
andy

[gaz05]

Engines with hydraulic lifters can do that if not run for a long time. Keep trying it and see if it quietens. Been a while since I worked on a CVH.

I recently sold my BILs Scoobie for him. It had been standing for six months and two people walked away from it because of the tap. Day after that the noise was gone and it ran perfect.

[twinturbo]

in 1999 I bought a clean looking 1.8 LX at auction for £250, it idled wonderfully quiet. but when I hit 2.5K i Got a rattle..

I went through everything short of the camshaft ( bought it but never fitted it as I stole my bro's engine )..

The most likely culprit is a failed follower, they were available from motor factors back then for about £16. Make sure they know it's a 1.8 CVH as 1.6 ones that cost £4 are no good.

It's an easy job, may be worth pulling them right after running and then checking the lenght with a micrometer to see if one is flaccid.

TT

[Big Vern]

High Andy,

Sounds like a lazy tappet to me, not uncommon on CVH especially if it's had infrequent oil changes or lots of short journeys. DON'T try to fix it with flushing oil or they'll all get clogged. Change oil and filter for good quality ones and get it nice and warm then go for a good long drive. If it don't quiet down they you'll need a new set:mad:

BV.

[HandyAndy]

Engines with hydraulic lifters can do that if not run for a long time. Keep trying it and see if it quietens. Been a while since I worked on a CVH.

I recently sold my BILs Scoobie for him. It had been standing for six months and two people walked away from it because of the tap. Day after that the noise was gone and it ran perfect.

Thanks Gary,

I,ve just allowed myself to breath again :eek: :D

I,ll change the oil & filter tomorrow & run it up to temp slowly on tick over & see what happens , another gulp of air :D

To be totally honest, as the engine had a full service history etc when I bought it, I haven,t even changed the Oil stem seals,
Would this be a wise move ? it doesn,t have excessive smoke on start up.

cheers
andy

cheers
andy

[twinturbo]

Set!

Just try one at first ;) dont want to kill the budget :D

TT

[flyerncle]

20/50 was favourite for everything a hundred years ago.Autodata says anything fom 5/30 to 20/40 depending on temp for that engine, I would say 20/40 if you can get it, if not get the thickest and add something like Wynns and I take it the oil pressure is ok.

And what Vern says makes sense.

Can be done with head on but not worth aggro in not smokey.

[twinturbo]

Naa leave well alone, it's a head off job and not worth it if it's clean. Should be good for a few 10k's before that needs doing.

The car I had was full dealer SH, had motorcraft parts and had been well looked after. Was a clean car actualy all round, but the second engine started using oil. I bought a Carlton and we traded the Sierra in against a BMW e30 325i Sport for my Bro ( think he just turned 21!!! ) AWSOME car ;)

TT

[HandyAndy]

Big Vern.......

Thanks for that :)
I,ll get some good quality oil with a good oil filter, I,ll get slightly thicker oil as Paul suggests,
As for going for a long drive.........I haven,t got my prop yet, maybe i,ll get Spud to push me for a few miles :D
I know the engine uses Hydraulic lifters but should I / can I still check any clearances...eg like checking tappets etc ?

Thanks TT, so if it is a Lazy/failed follower its nice to know its a fairly easy repair.

Paul, cheers, I,ll get as thick as I can get within the boundries of the oil spec,

Whilst I,m here talking of my engine...........
As i,m using an aftermarket air filter instead of the huge "frying pan", will this alter the tickover? as it seems to be running a little fast on tickover, I thought it was the automatic choke ( this is still plumbed in correctly as per original setup,)
Once it gets up to to temp it only drops the tickover down to about 1200 revs, in the haynes maual it suggest 900 - 1000 revs once warm

Thanks for your helps guys :cool:

cheers
andy

[twinturbo]

You could probably replace all 8 tappets/followers in about half an hour

As for the tickover...... the auto choke is the most likly culprit, Pierburgs get a bad wrap as beeing crap carbs. the carb is fine but the auto-choke can be troublesome..




I think when I had my 1.8CVH I went through all 8 followers, an exhaust manifold, spring set, and 3 head gaskets ( 1 to rule out the head gasket, 1 to swap the springs and 1 to replace the snapped head bolt that occurred during replacing the springs... )

TT

[HandyAndy]

Cheers TT,

I,m sat here reading the manual,

Also, thanks to forum member "Mark", I do have a spare Pierburg carb with all choke bits still attached, might be able to "Mix n Match" to solve the tickover problem.

I guess my new tyres will have to wait a little while longer :( :rolleyes: :D

cheers
andy

[Enoch]

It could well quieten down with use. I have a very slightly rattly tappet on my car, it is there when cold but goes quiet after a minute or two running.
It's not going to be a massively big deal to sort it, even if a couple of bits do need changing.
Best and all that.
Enoch

[HandyAndy]

It could well quieten down with use. I have a very slightly rattly tappet on my car, it is there when cold but goes quiet after a minute or two running.
It's not going to be a massively big deal to sort it, even if a couple of bits do need changing.
Best and all that.
Enoch

cheers Enoch,

Thats why I was a little concerned , as it gets louder the warmer the engine gets, rather than getting quieter etc,
so, I,m going to change the oil to a thicker viscosity ( spelling??) & new filter & see if that helps, if not then I,ll look at changing the offending parts.

cheers
andy
Ps... might still get my new tyres :D

[Enoch]

I reckon it might be the oil thinning to much as it gets warm. I would go to 10w50 or something, I doubt it will see much winter use so a heavier oil is probably better anyway. You might want to try what flyerncle suggested ind bung some Wynns in there.
Hope it's easily fixed, whatever it is.

[HandyAndy]

The Haynes book goes from 10/30 to 20/50 or multigrade.

Andy are you still using the mechanical fuel pump on the engine, probably if still with the standard carb's but check the length of the push rod and check for wear.

Adrian

Cheers Adrian,

Yes I,m using the standard mechanical fuel pump,
would wear on the push rod cause it to run at a faster tickover ?
I,ll whip it out tomorrow & have a look at it, I,ll check the book & see if it gives dimensions etc & if its ok to lubricate it etc.

Thanks for the "heads up" , I didn,t think of the fuel pump :rolleyes: :o

cheers
andy

[snapper]

Sometimes an exhaust gas leak from manifold to head can sound very much like valve tapper noise

[HandyAndy]

Sometimes an exhaust gas leak from manifold to head can sound very much like valve tapper noise


Hmmm, now thats got me thinking, maybe as i,ve just welded up a home made exhaust down pipe etc etc , thanks Snapper I,ll check that tomoorow too :D

on the plus side of things, it sounds lurrrrrvly with the silencer in place :cool:

cheers
andy

[drury318]

Hi Andy, might be stating the obvious here but if the tickover is too high then just turn the idle screw down a bit?... and as Vern says the rattle will be just a hydraulic tappet or two, renew the set and you will almost certainly cure it, and use 10/30 oil. Dennis.

[HandyAndy]

Thanks Dennis & Adrian, great info here

yes I have blocked off the breather that goes from the "frying pan " to the inlet manifold, I,ll check all the diaphragms tomorrow & with a bit of luck, thru a process of elimination of the all the points raised I,ll find the culprit, :)

I,d really like my new tyres :D so hopefully this won,t break my squeeky budget :o :D

thanks guys

cheers
andy

[spud69]

Hi Andy,

You got your prop shaft yet?

Also got some spare hydraulic lifters if you need to try and replace any.

Regards....AndyH

[mark]

Mine did the same a few weeks back just after i got it on the road, it was almost a knock rather than a tap, i was using 20/40 oil

I put some engine flush in got it very hot drained it, new oil and filter with 10/40 semi synthetic and it purrs perfectly now :)

i played with cvhs alot a few years back when i 1st passed my test and they do seem to do this when they have been stood a long time, sometimes some flush and fresh oil and a run out sorts it, sometimes it dont. Some people say if its goona be stood a while to take the tappets out and store them in a bath of oil.

If you do need to change the tappets and want to do the stem seals whilst its in bits i have a tool to do the seals without taking the head off, giz a shout and you can borrow it if you like, i may even give you a hand!

[twinturbo]

The hot bath of oil trick can help revive a tappet. They can quite often get blocked by solidifed crud.

TT

[HandyAndy]

A little update........

I,ve spent the morning working on the car,

Solved the high tickover .......... I had not tightened a bolt that I,ve put into the manifold that originally had a pipe connected to the "frying Pan air filter" or the one going to the Brake servo ( which is no longer there ), so was losing manifold pressure, sorted :cool:

Re jigged my throttle cable ( Thanks Spud ), all smooth & free running :cool:

I took the rocker cover off whilst the engine was stone cold, I noticed that a couple of the rocker arms were a little on what I thought were loose, checked the bolts, all tight, didn,t go any further,
Ran the engine up to temp, the tapping noise is still there, it seems to come & go to be honest,
I,ll be changing the oil & filter tomorrow so will see if that helps:)

cheers Spud & Mark...........might be a case I need you both to come & have a look & listen, see what you think ........please :D

cheers
andy

[mark]

I may get a chance to pop over for a listen tommorow if i ask the wife!

Wouldnt normally need permission but we have a new baby now n all that!:D

[twinturbo]

Take the little one with you.

TT

[HandyAndy]

I may get a chance to pop over for a listen tommorow if i ask the wife!

Wouldnt normally need permission but we have a new baby now n all that!

:D :D

Ahhhh the joys of being a new parent :D

cheers Mark, send me a text to let me know if you CAN :p make it & if so what time approx.

cheers
andy

[mark]

Take the little one with you.

TT

I havnt had chance to weld the isofix childseat mounts to the back of my roll bar yet :D

[spud69]

Strap him (or should i say child seat), you can have a 3 seater and all go out......:D

Are you up for track time tomorrow night Mark?

Sure you've put in lots of good behavior....

AndyH

[Big Vern]

Hi Andy,

The followers are a little on the loose side in fact quite loose especially if rocked side to side. The hydraulic tappet pumps up with oil pressure so they should stay quiet when running but if they get crud inside then they either don't stay pumped up during the valve closed phase (lazy tappet) or they stay deflated (collapsed tappet) during valve lift, often accompanied buy a partial misfire. When collapsed the noise sounds deeper like a big end but faster if you get what I mean.
A lazy tappet might be revived but a collapsed tappet should be replaced imediately as it could spit out the follower causing a lot more damage.

For Info the engine oil supplied by Ford for engine testing and development when these were 'new' was Motorcraft 15w40.
Now they use 0w20 how times have changed.....

As for the Pierberg carb, the problems are with the choke system. Bin the choke flap and the module that operates it unless your using the roadster in the middle of winter.


BV.

[baz-r]

andy you had the hyd tappets out? im pritty sure you can fit them in the wrong way on a 1.8 cvh so the oil fill hole doesent line up.
you did put them all back in the holes thay came from? :rolleyes: or did thay get mixed up :o

shouldnt take to long to whip of the rocker cover remove all the rocker arms and take out the tappets for a looky check the rollers on the bottom, oil holes, look down the tappet tubes to see if the cam is worn etc. even a oil wash out in the pariffin bath sometimes clears the sludge out and revives them.
failing that new tappets it is :mad:

too thick oil is just no good for hyd tappet engines as thay require a bit of leak by to lubricate and ajust corectly back in the early 90's i used to get engines running the cheap 20/50 5haging the cam lobes as the tappets failed to ajust going too tight and braking the hard skin on the cam all from the cost of a few quid on some oil
10/40 should be ok any lower could be a little thin for an engine of the cvh design era as thinner oils came later

[AshG]

My pinto sounded tappety when she had been stood a long time. Took her out for a good thrash soon sorted it out. Change the oil put some cheap 10/40 in fit prop give her a good rag up and down the road let it idle til the fan kicks in then see if its still tapping. If not put good oil in if tapping rag it some more. If it gets worse after a rag call it a day and swap the engine its the cheaper option.

[HandyAndy]

Thanks BV, Baz-R & Ash,

I,ve not been very well today :( & so didn,t feel upto working on my car, but I will take all the hints & tips onboard & will let you know the outcome when I feel upto working on the car,

Thanks for everyones input, much appreciated :)

cheers
andy

[twinturbo]

Ash's point on swappng the engine may be a good one...

I had spent about £150 excluding the cam on my 1.8lx before I swapped in a better unit. the cam was £100 too!

You could just find a good runner and swap the heads over.


One final thought, have you got that oil guage on yet ?

TT

[HandyAndy]

One final thought, have you got that oil guage on yet ?

TT

erm, no not yet, that is currently in use in another Roadster, currently blasting around a track :D

cheers
andy

[mark]

Strap him (or should i say child seat), you can have a 3 seater and all go out......:D

Are you up for track time tomorrow night Mark?

Sure you've put in lots of good behavior....

AndyH

Definately on the next one mate, the little fella has only been home from hospital 2 weeks so didnt wanna push it with the mrs, still letting her hormones cool down :D :D

The car is running superb at the moment though so looking forward to a bit of track action

[twinturbo]

we were out for pub lunch on day 2 with Toby ( the 6yr old ) but it was a straightforward birth.... it was three months later when everything went major tits up and I ended up being sole parent for about 2 months whilst doing 2 hospital runs daily..

TT

[deezee]

Hi Andy,
If you need to do some headwork on the engine, there is a head gasket set going super cheap on ebay.

Sierra 1.8 OHC Head Gasket Set (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-GRANADA-SIERRA-1800-OHC-INLET-MANIFOLD-HEAD-GASKET-/160453222540?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item255bc1e08c)

[HandyAndy]

Hi Andy,
If you need to do some headwork on the engine, there is a head gasket set going super cheap on ebay.

Sierra 1.8 OHC Head Gasket Set (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FORD-GRANADA-SIERRA-1800-OHC-INLET-MANIFOLD-HEAD-GASKET-/160453222540?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item255bc1e08c)

Cheers for the link Deezee,
I,ve just had a look at the listing & I,m not sure if that gasket set would fit my CVH as it states its for the 1800 (1796cc)...is that the 1800 pinto?
as my CVH is known as an 1800 but is 1769cc. :confused: :o

cheers
andy

[spud69]

erm, no not yet, that is currently in use in another Roadster, currently blasting around a track :D

cheers
andy

Forgot about that Andy, you need to kick my butt now and again. I'll get you one next time i see you.....;)

AndyH

[HandyAndy]

A little update.......

Spent the day on my car yesterday fitting & filling things :D

yesterday it got....

new front brake discs,
new pads
fresh coolant ( blimey that stuff ain,t cheap :eek: )
drained & refilled the gearbox & diff with fresh fluid ( smelly sticky stuff )
new oil & oil filter ( went with 10 / 30w semi synthetic),
new plugs
new plug leads

Now, when I started the engine after the above work was done, ran really quiet, no tappet noise, thought...great, problem solved......but then the tapping noise slowly returned.....aaarrgh...........but then it goes away again...really frustrating, don,t know why its doing this?

after a while with the engine running upto temp, the revs at tickover rose to 2000rpm, wouldn,t drop back down........fiddled with lots of things, checked throttle cable was free & returning= yes, checked idle adjustment= correct.

A neighbour suggested it might be a sticky "something " in the carb, so took carb off, cleaned the insides with carb cleaner, all back together & it seems to have solved the high tickover :)

Whats really annoying me is this tapping noise , it comes & goes even when hot, so was thinking it can,t be due to the oil thinning out once warm....

any suggestions before I pull what little hair I have left out? :confused:

Oh & also fitted new gauges into the dash panel, looks good if I say so myself lol.

cheers
andy

[twinturbo]

Use a long screwdriver on the cam cover to narrow down which tappet/folower it is.

TT

[HandyAndy]

Forum member "Mark" came over to have a listen of my engine today,

at first it ran quietly then the tapping started :eek: ,

we took the rocker cover off & found 1 almighty loose rocker arm, well it wasn,t so much that the arm was loose, but the cam follower was obviously not working as it was no effort to push the rocker in either direction, unlike all the others, so in a way a good result as it was quick & easy to identify the issue.

So............ straight onto "fleabay" & i,ve ordered a full set ( 8) cam followers, brand new, but the best part is the cost :D ..................

£19.99 plus £5.99 postage......great bargain indeed for all 8 :cool:

Thanks for your help Mark :)

cheers
andy

[Enoch]

LOL good to see that normal service is resumed on the bargain front:)
Trust Andy to search out another great buy. I reckon your car must have cost at least 100 quid by now though :p

[HandyAndy]

:o :D

The seller has 1 set of followers left at that price ;) if any one else with a CVH might need them.

My car will be on the road within my original budget

as these parts are such a good price it means I can still get my new tyres :cool:

cheers
andy

[twinturbo]

Buking Fargin

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ford-1-8-cvh-roller-cam-followers-/270600260601?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f01084bf9#ht_1801wt_911

TT

[HandyAndy]

SUCCESS :cool:

My new cam followers arrived yesterday, so had a good read of the manual last night to get my head around the fitting process, this afternoon I set to on the engine.
Now, I openly admit I am not a trained mechanic, more a case of learnt a little over the years when repairing various cars I,ve owned due to keeping the costs down on basic repairs etc......
Anyways......off with the bonnet & socket in hand off came the rocker cover, with the manual beside me I undo the first set of rocker arms ( keeping them in the correct order on a cardboard cutout to ensure they went back in original place etc).
In the manual it states that the tiny oil passage hole in the follower MUST go opposite to the oil passage hole in the cylinder head, so I pull out the first cam follower to find this was incorrectly fitted :eek:
I finally fit all the new followers ensuring they are fitted correctly ( each new one has a painted mark on them to aid fitment ).

It is obvious that my engine has had replacement followers in the past as I found that 5 out of the 8 were incorrectly fitted.

I bolted everything back to the correct torque settings, turned the fuel on ( I have an inline fuel tap ) & started her up......... she started first time & I can,t tell you how chuffed I am :D she,s running like a purring cat.

I also set to & sorted the high tickover problem I had, with thanks to the spare carb I have I sussed out that as I,m not running the automatic choke system the "step" rotor that is adjusted when using the auto choke was set at its highest tickover position, a quick fiddle with to allow it to rest as if the choke had warmed the engine & now she,s ticking over at the correct revs:cool:

Thanks for everyones suggestions of what the prob was, I,m now a very happy bunny indeed.

cheers
andy

[David_17]

Nice to hear you've got it sorted :) What's next on the list?? :cool:

[HandyAndy]

Nice to hear you've got it sorted :) What's next on the list?? :cool:

Cheers Dave,

next on the list is the "bleeding brakes" :D ......... I mean ...brake fluid going into the system, then once I have brakes that will stop me.....time for a little drive....on a private road of course:)

cheers
andy

[David_17]

awesome :D

[antonia800]

its all to do with the oil you must use a mineral oil in the cvh 10/40 dont be tempted by performance oil, duckhams do a good one (from my time racing a XR2) came of track ratteling like a bag of spanners changed the oil quiet as a mouse brilliant

[HandyAndy]

its all to do with the oil you must use a mineral oil in the cvh 10/40 dont be tempted by performance oil, duckhams do a good one (from my time racing a XR2) came of track ratteling like a bag of spanners changed the oil quiet as a mouse brilliant

It was a strange situation..last year when I bought the donor car, I drove it home approx 200 miles, ran great, nice and quiet... stripped the donor for this build, so the engine has been idle for about 13 months.

The noise was traced to the cam followers, I,ve replaced all 8 & its super quiet now :)
I,ve put fresh oil & filter in so hopefully with all that it should be a happy motor.... I must admit, I don,t intend keeping the engine very long ;) got a transplant in mind during winter .

Cheers
andy

ps... I used to race motorbikes... crazy days :eek: :D