Using a FWD Engine?

[acra]

Hi guys, I'm in the very (very) early stages of planning a build - I'm considering getting on a welding course as I'm still in an apprenticeship right now so funds won't allow for a build for at least two years :P

I've somehow got it into my head that I'd like a specific engine, but I've no idea if it's even possible!

I'm after light weight and economy - I've never driven RWD before, and don't plan on huge amounts of power, all I'm after is a fun drive and a good project!

I'm currently thinking of using the 1KR-FE engine, seen in Citroen C1, Peugeot 107, Toyota Aygo etc. It's a Toyota engine, and uses a Toyota box; but it's FWD.
Is it possible to use such an engine? I'm not sure what extra work it'd need to transfer the power to the rear, but I'd be game for it if it's doable.

Basic specs of the engine are good for me, 3 cylinder, 12 valve, 68hp and one of the lightest production model engines (69kg) - it's just under the litre, and I've driven the C1 with one in and the power would be more than adequate for me on a lighter car!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_KR_engine

Just looking for advice:
- Will the engine fit? (not sure if it's too deep/tall)
- What is needed to convert to RWD (if possible)?
- Anything else anyone could throw in!

Any help is much appreciated!! :)

[twinturbo]

You will need to find a way of adapting a RWD gearobx. and finding one that when combined with the final drive will provide suitable ratios.

The clutch will probably present a few issues too.

And there's a good chance that the engine management and security systems will be a bit of a pain to sort.

TT

[big_wasa]

Have you thought about the 1.3 Ka engine. Its small and being simlar to a xflow will mount up to a t9.
The 1.25 will not though with out a new bell housing.

Again some electrical work involved but it could be done.

[acra]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies!
twinturbo, you've pretty much confirmed my worries - trying to match the engine I want up to RWD is gonna be a pain in the proverbial.

big_wasa, I'd not considered the Ka tbh, and I'm not sure why. It looks a reasonable engine, probably a whole lot easier too - do you reckon I'd need to keep the clutch assembly too?
Electrical work isn't a concern to me, I'd look at it as a challenge - in my field I'm gonna need to work out how the fairies do their magic, so a challenge like that won't be too bad ;)

Has anyone used a Ka engine, or similar before?

I'm thinking of doing the rest of the build to the Haynes plans, using Sierra components (and this idea of using a low-power lightweight unit, kinda like original 7's).

[twinturbo]

Eeeeurg... The Endura E.

Ford had to find something to shoe horn in to the KA's bay and satisfy pedestrian front impact protection. They had nothing to fit the bill in the modern line up of engines, so hauld the old x-flow out of the skip.

I don't want to say it. Please somone shoot me afterwards. But.

If you want a small 4pot, that has been used in the kitcar market for many many years, offers upgrade paths and has a bi-polar reliability disorder. Then the Rover K-Series is a reasonable bet.

1.0 8v throught to blown 2.0 16v gives a breadth of options. Fairly simple Management of EFI.

TT

[twinturbo]

Electrical work isn't a concern to me

Many modern cars have security systems that take note of components on the engine & the rest of the car ( throttle motors, air meters, etc ) if the component numbers don't match the ECU or a missing ( where my ABS module gone ? ) then the management will not work. Often the wiring needed to even fool the systems can get out of hand ( where my drivers door lock gone? ).

expensive aftremarket management can solve this sometimes.

TT

[acra]

Eeeeurg... The Endura E.

Ford had to find something to shoe horn in to the KA's bay and satisfy pedestrian front impact protection. They had nothing to fit the bill in the modern line up of engines, so hauld the old x-flow out of the skip.

I don't want to say it. Please somone shoot me afterwards. But.

If you want a small 4pot, that has been used in the kitcar market for many many years, offers upgrade paths and has a bi-polar reliability disorder. Then the Rover K-Series is a reasonable bet.

1.0 8v throught to blown 2.0 16v gives a breadth of options. Fairly simple Management of EFI.

TT

Hang on, you're criticising the Ka engine, saying it's old - then suggest the equally (if not older) K series?

I've had a quick look about, and it's not really as light or economic as I was looking for, but it may be an alternative to the nightmare of converting the 1KR I wanted initially.

Only thing that concerns me is the many reports of head gasket issues...

Either way, I'd want something that can fit into the original design car, without too much chassis modification.
Ideally I want a light engine, preferably 1.6 or below, but still pushing 60hp minimum. I know that won't be fast, but the C1 I had weighed more than the kitcar would, and still got to 60 in 11 seconds - so potentially without modification to the engine I'd be looking at around 8 seconds at a guess.

[twinturbo]

The KA's Endura E is basicaly based on an engine that started life in the late 1950's using tried and trusted principles.

The K-Series dates from the late 80 and combined many revolutionay techniques.


Head gasket issues are a problem on K's many garages wont touch them. It's a comon problem on many wet liner engines. If the engien has been well maintained and not overheated then the should last ok.


As for fitting in the original design, the engine bay will fit fairly large engines. Certainly most 4-pot ones should be no problem.

You could look at the 1.6 MX5 as this is already a tried and tested route.

TT

[transverse]

Hi Acra,
as you are at the start planning your build, you could be a bit more adventurous!.

Take ~400 mm of length out the front engine bay, and mount the entire C1 transaxle in one piece in a 400mm triangulated extension behind the seats, leaving the Roadsters wheelbase as it was.

You might even get away with using the C1 suspension struts and possible the C1 lower wishbones/subframe!

Leave everything else as it is apart from the rear diff / rear wishbone mounts.
The trans tunnel could be narrowed but unless you need the space, leave as it is!


Its a route we will all have to think about anyway as the RWD get older/rustier and rarer!

Perhaps a Fiesta/Clio/Corsa etc donored Roadster with modern engines form 1.2 to 2.0 (even diesel if it floats your boat!)
Is there a book in it!

[acra]

Hi Acra,
as you are at the start planning your build, you could be a bit more adventurous!.

Take ~400 mm of length out the front engine bay, and mount the entire C1 transaxle in one piece in a 400mm triangulated extension behind the seats, leaving the Roadsters wheelbase as it was.

You might even get away with using the C1 suspension struts and possible the C1 lower wishbones/subframe!

Leave everything else as it is apart from the rear diff / rear wishbone mounts.
The trans tunnel could be narrowed but unless you need the space, leave as it is!


Its a route we will all have to think about anyway as the RWD get older/rustier and rarer!

Perhaps a Fiesta/Clio/Corsa etc donored Roadster with modern engines form 1.2 to 2.0 (even diesel if it floats your boat!)
Is there a book in it!

I'm loving the community here already - so many ideas and helpful hints!

Just clarifying - you mean rear-mounting the engine? That's an interesting concept, I'm following a Rear-Rear project online at the moment, but they're redesigning the whole shape too.

I guess, if there's space in the back (and it doesn't make it too rear end heavy) then it's doable, leaving space up front for fuel tank, battery, radiator, maybe even steal the power steering too since that's electrical...

The C1 ECU and electronics is fairly basic in the early models (2006-08) and I've worked on one when I had it - though mine was a model with aircon.
Only thing I'd definitely change if keeping the gearbox is the clutch - far too weak, needs the Toyota Yaris clutch if it's gonna last...

[acra]

Just coming back to this, does anyone know of somebody building a Haynes/7 roadster using an engine originally from a FWD?
I'm still interested, as it makes the choice of engines far greater. I'd probably stick to the Sierra to begin with, for simplicity - but if I wanted to use an old FWD engine later down the line, I'd have to modify the chassis sooner rather than later.

Are there any build diaries or anything?
I'm just trying to think logically, it can't be much more than rotating the engine to longitudinal, then mounting it to an appropriate gear box - for that matter (at the risk of exposing my newb-ness), why isn't it possible to use an original FWD gearbox, mated to a RWD drive shaft?

[MikeB]

Hi,

Most builders will be doing exactly that, mating a FWD Zetec engine from a mondeo to the seirra gearbox is really simple, job done.

A FWD gearbox also contains the diff so you would end up with outputs for 2 halfshafts rather than one output to send down a prop shaft to the rear diff so a no go I'm afraid.

Alternatively with some mods put the engine and gearbox from the FWD into the back of the roadster and have it as a mid engine car a bit like the atom.

mike

[acra]

Hi,

Most builders will be doing exactly that, mating a FWD Zetec engine from a mondeo to the seirra gearbox is really simple, job done.

A FWD gearbox also contains the diff so you would end up with outputs for 2 halfshafts rather than one output to send down a prop shaft to the rear diff so a no go I'm afraid.

Alternatively with some mods put the engine and gearbox from the FWD into the back of the roadster and have it as a mid engine car a bit like the atom.

mike

Cheers Mike, that answers exactly what I was looking for, I didn't realise that the diff was included in a FWD gearbox! I've seen several FWD engines in the rear of cars, the MidLana project for one - but I'm more keen on the 'proper' layout so I think I'll be sticking with the norm!

How does the engine mate up with the 'box? I'm just wondering if it'd be possible to couple a non-ford engine to a ford 'box, via welding or something similar.

[piston head]

in my opinion one of the best 4-pot engines are:4AEG,M42..Toyota engine can be mount with T50 gearbox.BMW engine originaly has 1.8l,136-142bhp,10:1 compr.ratio.But with some little extra,it can be stroked to 2.0l,200bhp,12.0:1 compr.ratio.:D end it's has not so comlicated EFI System,+ it's from RWD car,so you do not need all this nigthmare for converting FWD TO suit RWD car

[acra]

in my opinion one of the best 4-pot engines are:4AEG,M42..Toyota engine can be mount with T50 gearbox.BMW engine originaly has 1.8l,136-142bhp,10:1 compr.ratio.But with some little extra,it can be stroked to 2.0l,200bhp,12.0:1 compr.ratio.:D end it's has not so comlicated EFI System,+ it's from RWD car,so you do not need all this nigthmare for converting FWD TO suit RWD car

I'd still really like to use the 1KR-FE from the Toyota Aygo etc - it's only a 3 pot, but it gets 69hp standard - with a supercharger gets around 100hp. Considering the weight of the roadster, that's still a nice amount of power-weight to be playing with, plus it'd get a nice high petrol mileage! :)

[piston head]

OK,but do not forget how much it will cost you to supercharge the engine:lower compr.pistons,modify oil system,electric stuff and many others fings..in the end you get few thousend punds engine with 100bhp..It's all up to you:cool:

[deezee]

I'd still really like to use the 1KR-FE from the Toyota Aygo etc - it's only a 3 pot, but it gets 69hp standard - with a supercharger gets around 100hp. Considering the weight of the roadster, that's still a nice amount of power-weight to be playing with, plus it'd get a nice high petrol mileage! :)

Your going about this backwards. The Aygo engines weighs in at 70kgs and a 2.0 Zetec comes in at 115 Kgs. So your 69Bhp car at 500 kgs will be 138bhp/Tonne. But the Zetec, producing 140Bhp comes in at 545 kgs, giving 256Bhp/Tonne.

Your engine of choice, not only being almost impossible to engineer into the car, is going to give some mediocre performance compared to a FWD Mondeo engine. There are loads of RWD gearbox / engine combinations out there, why don't you benefit from all the engineering and money car manufacturers have spent with engines and gearboxes and choose a combination to suit you.

[acra]

Your going about this backwards. The Aygo engines weighs in at 70kgs and a 2.0 Zetec comes in at 115 Kgs. So your 69Bhp car at 500 kgs will be 138bhp/Tonne. But the Zetec, producing 140Bhp comes in at 545 kgs, giving 256Bhp/Tonne.

Your engine of choice, not only being almost impossible to engineer into the car, is going to give some mediocre performance compared to a FWD Mondeo engine. There are loads of RWD gearbox / engine combinations out there, why don't you benefit from all the engineering and money car manufacturers have spent with engines and gearboxes and choose a combination to suit you.

But power is only secondary to me though, I'm also looking for economy (sounds daft) with something I've built myself... if that makes sense? There's no other route I can see that fits this specification:
> Nice engine noise
> Fair power/weight
> Low fuel usage (when driving sensibly)

[deezee]

Why do you want low fuel usage from a sports car? What kind of MPG are you looking for? Why does the engine need to be specifically light? I understand wanting to build a car, thats why I started building mine (with the engine out of a FWD Escort)

Maybe you'd be better off with a motorbike engine if you want light. Although you'll only manage 30 mpg with something like a Triumph 3 cylinder. I believe the whole engine AND gearbox only weighs in at modest 70kgs but it gives you 100 plus BHP.

[snapper]

If this is your preferred engine then it's all about a gearbox.
You need to find a rear wheel drive gearbox that is light and will compliment you lack of power with ratios that will get you off the line but also give you economical and usable 5th gear.
Bellhousings can be adapted usually with a spacer that has bolt hole that mate with the engine and the box.
Flywheels can be drilled to take full clutch kits or you search the manufacturers to find a plate that is the right diameter for the cover and also has the right spline for the gearbox input shaft.
Anything can be engineered but is it really worth it?
Having built and been involved with many kit builds I would not fixate on an engine then try and make it fit at any cost, smaller engines often return less mpg on the road than bigger ones driven reasonably.
You can fit any Ford engine from 1100 crossflow to 2.0L Zetec straight on to a Ford MT75 or Type 9, easily for little cost.

[acra]

Why do you want low fuel usage from a sports car? What kind of MPG are you looking for? Why does the engine need to be specifically light? I understand wanting to build a car, thats why I started building mine (with the engine out of a FWD Escort)

Maybe you'd be better off with a motorbike engine if you want light. Although you'll only manage 30 mpg with something like a Triumph 3 cylinder. I believe the whole engine AND gearbox only weighs in at modest 70kgs but it gives you 100 plus BHP.

Sounds mad, right? :)
The main thing is, I really want to build my own car, really like the looks of the 7 style cars, and power isn't an issue for me for two reasons:
I'm rarely going to use a track, so the car only has to be capable of road-legal performance, and I wrote a car off almost two years ago, since which I've been the most tame driver imaginable :(

Although it is a good point that it will probably be disadvantageous to use that engine, I think I am living with my head in the clouds a little!

If this is your preferred engine then it's all about a gearbox.
You need to find a rear wheel drive gearbox that is light and will compliment you lack of power with ratios that will get you off the line but also give you economical and usable 5th gear.
Bellhousings can be adapted usually with a spacer that has bolt hole that mate with the engine and the box.
Flywheels can be drilled to take full clutch kits or you search the manufacturers to find a plate that is the right diameter for the cover and also has the right spline for the gearbox input shaft.
Anything can be engineered but is it really worth it?
Having built and been involved with many kit builds I would not fixate on an engine then try and make it fit at any cost, smaller engines often return less mpg on the road than bigger ones driven reasonably.
You can fit any Ford engine from 1100 crossflow to 2.0L Zetec straight on to a Ford MT75 or Type 9, easily for little cost.

Thanks for the information mate, that's pretty much what I was looking for - again, it's true that I'm probably looking at too much work/cost for no real gain - what kind of mpg would you be looking at from the regular 1.6/1.8 choice?

[twinturbo]

Why do you want economy? is it to save money?

Zetec + Box + Sundries £250 - 35MPG
Aygo + box + sundries ~£1500 - 50MPG

£1,250 difference.

Travel 30,000 miles in 6 years.

30,000/35 = 857 Gallons at £5.5G = £4,714 on fule for the zetec.
30,000/50 = 600 Gallons at £5.5G = £3,300 on fule for the Aygo

£1,417 difference.

So.

After 6 years at 5,000 miles a year (unlikly) you will have saved £167

Your return will come late on too after Y5.

TT

[mark]

If i drove it reasonably careful which i may have tried for about 500ft :rolleyes: my 1.8 cvh on bike carbs was delivering about 38mpg before i destroyed it!

I dare say a carefully driven 1.8 zetec would return 40mpg if not more without too much trouble as these cars are so light, as already mentioned it would be cheap to source the parts and has been done by others plenty of times so is a straightforward job.

[alga]

I suspect it's the atrocious aerodynamics of a Seven that's eating up the fuel. According to this page (http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm), the aerodynamic drag of a Caterham is about 50% worse than that of a typical sedan (although better than a VW van or a Land Rover Defender).

Caterham was able to pull out 131 MPG out of a Seven with a stock K-series engine purely by improving aerodynamics and by careful driving:
http://green.autoblog.com/2006/07/27/the-131-mpg-caterham-seven/

[Hoybi]

Geert Swaals, one of the first suppliers of Haynes Roadster parts (ALPHAX) had a solution for mating AUDI/VW engines to Ford gearboxes.
2 years ago he stopped the business. (his web site is still online)
From his Site, I copied the run down of engines. Left out the prices.
Although this is the higher performance class, his AUDI-solution (FWD) should be possible in less powerful versions.

quote :

AUDI - VW
Audi 1.8i 20v Turbo: A 4 cylinder turbo engine from Audi, which came in the A3 S3 A4 and TT. This same engine was placed in several VW and Seat models. Standard ranging from 150-225 bhp depending on the stock ECU and turbo, but with a free programmable ECU, 260 bhp is easy to get. A very good engine, very strong and full of German precision engineering. This turbocharged engine has virtually no boost-gap (lag) and maintains its maximum torque from 1800 til 4700 rpm. Price depends on engine number.

Connecting to a Ford MT-75 gearbox: This engine can now easily be mated to a Ford MT-75 gearbox. This gearbox can be found in the Sierra's and Scorpio's/Granada's with the 2.0l DOHC. The MT-75 is a very strong 5-speed that can easily take 300 bhp. Alphax has developed its own adaptingplate for this Audi-Ford combination. This adaptingplate comes with a recondintioned flywheel, a new clutchplate and a new pressureplate. It also comes with instructions on how to modify your clutch release bearing and gearbox.

Free Programmable MegaSquirt Engine Controll Unit for Audi 1.8i 20v Turbo: To get the most out of this engine and to controll it all yourself, there is the option to install a free programmable ECU. This unit comes with a ECU, wiringloom and a wideband lambda sensor.


NISSAN
SR20DET Redtop: The first of this serie Nissan engines. This SR20DET came in the Nissan Silvia and the 180SX. The 4 cylinder turbocharged engine gives a 203 bhp. This 2.0L comes complete with the stock ECU and wiringloom and 5-speed gearbok. All ready to be built into your kitcar.

SR20DET Blacktop: The second generation 2.0 liter comes from the Silva and the 200SX. Standard it produces 210 bhp and comes with a Garreth T-28 turbo. This engine also comes complete with the stock ECU, wiringloom and a 5-speed gearbox. This engine makes a great powerplant for drifting.


TOYOTA
4A-GE Silvertop: 4 cylinder 1587cc 20 valves with variable valve timing. Standard 140 bhp. The engine is complete with all sensors, complete stock wiring and ECU. Fits almost every kitcar and is widely used in sevens. Great engine with lots of tuning options

4A-GE Blacktop: 4 cylinder 1587cc 20 valves with VVT-i. The top of the 4A-GE engines and only sold in a few countries in Europe. This engine comes with complete with wiring, sensors and ECU.

3S-GTE: 4 cylinder 2.0 liter turbocharged engine. This engine delivers 200-240 bhp and can take a serious beating. The engine is complete with all sensors, wiringloom and stock ECU.
MITSUBISHI
4G 63T: A high-performance engine from Mitsubshi and one of the strongest around. This compact 2.0L 4 cylinder turbocharged engine delivers from 240 bhp. The height of this engine makes it well suited for all kitcars. It comes complete including factory ECU and wiringloom. Please inform for options for gearboxes.

[aerosam]

Sounds mad, right? :)
The main thing is, I really want to build my own car, really like the looks of the 7 style cars, and power isn't an issue for me

Not really an answer to using you preferred engine, but bearing what you said in mind, why not go down the original locost route and use the old crossflow. Building these cars is tried and tested.

If you want to build a Haynes roadster, you could always use a 1.6 pinto - just ask AshG just how much fun he has in his! Also, how available are the engines you want, and how much will a good one cost?

What worries me is that you are doing an apprenticeship and (no offence intended) you may be, at the moment, lacking the skills needed to make big changes to a tried and tested design and make them work successfully. Ive gone down that route to fit BMW engine and running gear, and have been building for 2 and a half years. If I had been more conventional and used more tried and tested engine, running gear combinations, I could have been enjoying my car all this summer instead of being in the garage still building it.

I don't mean to discourage you at all, in fact, I love the fact you want to be innovative, this is how these cars grow and evolve, but you need to weigh eveything up before you settle on how you want to proceed with your build.

Good luck.

Sam.

[acra]

Not really an answer to using you preferred engine, but bearing what you said in mind, why not go down the original locost route and use the old crossflow. Building these cars is tried and tested.

If you want to build a Haynes roadster, you could always use a 1.6 pinto - just ask AshG just how much fun he has in his! Also, how available are the engines you want, and how much will a good one cost?

What worries me is that you are doing an apprenticeship and (no offence intended) you may be, at the moment, lacking the skills needed to make big changes to a tried and tested design and make them work successfully. Ive gone down that route to fit BMW engine and running gear, and have been building for 2 and a half years. If I had been more conventional and used more tried and tested engine, running gear combinations, I could have been enjoying my car all this summer instead of being in the garage still building it.

I don't mean to discourage you at all, in fact, I love the fact you want to be innovative, this is how these cars grow and evolve, but you need to weigh eveything up before you settle on how you want to proceed with your build.

Good luck.

Sam.

Sam, that's an ace bit of advice - I think I am in dream land, and I'm not quite sure why... I've also been looking at bike engine options, but again they'd be a large amount of work for little gain!

I'm definitely preferring the Haynes, given the availability of the old escorts, although I'm worried about finding the right Sierra, again due to their age.

If I were to go down the traditional route, how far along the build do you need to be getting the donor?