damper angel

[squbti]

hi, i´ve reacently done the first of three tests on my build & at first the examiner saied that it looked good & had no rermarks but after talking to someof the other examiners it was dicided that the front suspension is according to them WORTHLESS:mad:
*25x2mm tubes in the front lower wishbones is too weak with pinto motor!
*damper angel must not be greater than 35 deg.
*lower damper bracket too weak & too far from the uppright.
*upper damper bracket should be moved out to get a better angel.
*back damper angel is to big ,damper bracket should be moved out.
i have done everything exactly as in the book but it appears the examiners here dont think its good enough:confused: what can i say,heads upp to anyone building in SWEDEN.
i have started on new 25x3mm front lower wishbones but i dont know what or if i could change the angels on the dampers ,could i just move the brackets out? anyone have any sugestions or ideas?
wuold moving the brackets out effect the hight......?
thankfull for any help
samy

[squbti]

here´s an old photo of my front suspension just to give an idea of what it looks like1056

[flyerncle]

What a PITA Samy,is there no justification to appeal the decision and can that be done in Sweden.

How can they say that in their opinion the suspension is not up to the job as many Roadsters are running around in England and other country's.

Moving the pivot points will change ride heights and suspension settings and stronger springs may well be needed to compensate.

[squbti]

does this look ok?
1057

[squbti]

Thanks for the reply Fly, thats exactly what i tried to tell them this is a tried & proven disign made by profesionals... but i need more than that to change there minds, they obviosly dont know what they´re talking about so they go by the rule that more is better.
cheers
samy

[flyerncle]

The design was done in CAD I presume and FEA of the stresses etc would have all been done and I would think it is possibly over engineered to account for home build and other discrepancies such as weld penetration etc.

Someone more in the know with CAD expierience and an engineering background will be able to help and possibly give you some idea as to what you could present to the tester to persuade them otherwise.

Good Luck.

[squbti]

that would be great fly,i know it will work out in the end , thanks again.
samy

[alga]

Also, the overall solution of the suspension is not much different from other seven type cars. It's almost identical to the MK Indy design as far as I know. You could try to find out what suspensions cars that are running around in Sweden have, and appeal the decision based on that information.

[alga]

Also, there's always a route to take the car to an EU country with easier self build registration rules, then "import" it to your home country. That's the route I'm going to take, I'll take the car to Estonia for the inspection.

[squbti]

it realy sucks & its too bad it has to come to apeals & unnesesary discutions when i know there are hundreds of sevens built & being built in sweden & many of them have the same disign .i think the only way to convince them would be to have some solid tecknicle info.... wich i think is not going to be easy to get.
would be great to hear from other builders in sweden & hear what they have done, i will try to post a thread on locost sweden maybe but as far as the haynes roadster i cant think of anyone that would know more than people on this forum:)
thanks
samy

[squbti]

hi adrian, the upper wishbones are done exactly as per the book & the threaded bars are pointing upp but i used 25mm tubes for the upper wishbones so its hard to see that in the photos.
cheers
samy

[alga]

it is amazing how it is down to someone's thoughts on the matter.

Essentially, everywhere self-builds are subject to an expert assessment. Good thing that in Britain the experts are more used to the idea of a Seven-type car and don't question the design basics this way.

[squbti]

well, thank god i didnt fully weld all the brackets for the first test ,i had a feeling it was better to wait with that till after just incase they were picky:D but almost all the rest of the chassis is fully welded & the tester knew about it before the test so it was ok otherwise he thought the welds looked nice.i had a hard time getting all the specs for all the pipes & tubes i used but that turned out ok in the end so they realy make you jump through hoops here.

[flyerncle]

What kit cars are imported to Sweden and if so what suspension is fitted and how do they pass inspection if the same type as the roadster.

I'm fairly sure someone has posted specs of angle's and stresses, deflection,loads etc but as usual cant remember who it was,but there are very knowledgeable cad users who may be able to help with analyisis of standard and modified suspension components ie beefed up tube specs etc.

[squbti]

hi again, we have westfields & caterhams in sweden but i wouldnt know where to start to get the info i need & thats why i turner to this forum for help & advice, hopefully someone here knows what i need to do to be able to show the inpectors why the disign is the way it is & shouldnt need modifing. i know there are many builders in sweden but i´m not sure they´ve had the same remarks & if so then this could be important for them too but more importantly for the haynes roadster to be approved in sweden.
cheers
samy

[ozzy1]

There is an article in the DEC edition of CKC where a guy has built a car from scratch in Sweden.Didnt seem too much hassle with the Swedish Vehicle Builders Organisation(SVBNO).He just spoke and liased with them and showed them drawings of his intentions.
What about if you contact Westfield Uk with the intent of getting a build manual as you are "interested in building a westfield".Will obviously cost you but would surely help with SVBNO as its most likely to have some drawings and pics in to use as a comparison :confused:


http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/

or this maybe more useful :D

http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/Dealers/sweden.html

[squbti]

hi ozzy, i got alot of things for my roadster from westfield sweden just outsid of stockholm & they were very helpfull but unfotunately they have closed :( so now its westfield uk that i can call & i might just give it a shot but all i realy need to know is what angles do they or caterhams have on the dampers. almost all super sevens i have seen have almost the same angles as the haynes roadster :confused:
thanks
samy

[squbti]

I know that Janne e has had his sfro1(first test) & had no remarks about the damper angles or positions I saw his build thread on locost sweden & it looks like his build is in the final stages & everything looks like per the book.
maybe i´ll try to pm janne & see if he could help me out.
samy

[flyerncle]

Could be wrong Samy,is the westfield "type approved " and therefore ok in europe without any testing and this could be enough to further your build.

[ozzy1]

As you say maybe pm janne and see if you can get the same members to inspect your build :confused:

[squbti]

I spoke to the examiner that tested Jannes roadster & asked him for his input but he simply said he couldnt remember Janne or his roadster & that I should just do as the other examiner asked & redo the front suspension ,so i told him I think it makes no sence to ask an unexperienced new builder to ignore a well known & proven book for no good reason. I think its totaly unprofesional of them to OK one build & make a big deal of another completely identicle build:confused:
Samy

[squbti]

Does anyone know what the angles on the dampers in relation to the lower wishbones are (front/back)? what would be a good way to measure that? I need to find out what the angles are before i speak to my tester again ,he would like to see them between 20-30 degr & max 35degr :eek: but i´m not going down without a fight:D (very unswedesh) but i got to do what i can.
thanks/samy

[flyerncle]

Sorry this does not answer the question above but in england you could go over the head/bypass the tester and appeal to the government department VOSA that deals with the system here, if you believe you are getting a hard time from them and it definately looks like it, can you do the same.

[squbti]

This has realy been very stressful for me & that is exactly what this build should not be :( I´m going to have a talk with my tester in the morning & try my best to persuade him to change his mind. I´ll let you know how it goes.
thanks
Samy

[mopple]

Does anyone know what the angles on the dampers in relation to the lower wishbones are (front/back)? what would be a good way to measure that? I need to find out what the angles are before i speak to my tester again ,he would like to see them between 20-30 degr & max 35degr :eek: but i´m not going down without a fight:D (very unswedesh) but i got to do what i can.
thanks/samy

Heres http://web.zone.ee/mopple/Haynes/Roadsteri%20koost.PDF my Solidworks drawing of Roadster chassis with wishbones attached.
Both lower wishbones are horizontal and rear suspension has 0,5 deg neg camber.
Why must be the damper angles be so small according to your tester? With smaller angles damping and spring rates must be bigger to achieve the same resultants as per default design.

Madis

[squbti]

Hi Madis, thanks for the help. Your drawings are great & very helpfull i hope you dont mind if i save them:) . I dont know much about how the dampers work & at what angles they work best but i´m trying to find out & learn all i can.
Here´s what the swedesh car builders orginisation have to say:-
*Too litle angle makes the springs weeker or have less resistance & could result in "damper bind"...

*Same thing can hapen if damper angle is too big & a biger & stronger spring will be needed, also the damper movements become very small ...

So they simly recomend 20-30 deg & max35 deg. The roadster has acording to the drawings & the measurements i made 42 in the front & 45 in the back & from what i´ve read on this forum that works great for the roadster.
From what i´ve seen on the web it seems most super sevens have more or less the same angles, but why & how that works I have no idea:confused: so if any one out there could explain that it would be great:)
cheers
samy

[flyerncle]

Good luck Samy.

[squbti]

Thanks fly, I spoke to the tester this morning & simply told him I would rather not change anything as far as the damper angles & he said I could do that & that he would make a decision after the test drive so I hope I dont have to eat my words & that my roadster kicks ass:D so please tell me it will....
chers
samy

[flyerncle]

Rock and Roll Samy ;) all the ones i have been in do so why should yours be different.

Good luck.

[Enoch]

I have only driven mine round a roundabout and back up my drive but I was very surprised at how quickly it went round the roundabout :D . These cars do handle well from what I have seen so if he is saying that he will pass it if it handles ok I think you will be fine. There are some videos on you tube that seem to show them handling OK as well. Hope you get it sorted.
Enoch.