Will this do?

[danblack87]

Hi there,
I am new to all this and after reading the book feel I am ready to undertake a challenge and build my own trackday car.

My question is regarding my donor, I want to use a Mondeo 2.0l Zetec as my donor. Is this car an easy replacement for the sierra as my Donor and will I need to make any major amendments from the book at all?

I would really appreciate any info/help/suggestions etc.

Thanks alot in advance,

Dan.

[twinturbo]

Unfortunatly it's not an ideal donor at all.. The only 3 componnets you can possibly use are the engine, front calipers and master cylinder. Everything else is probably close to useless.

What year Modeo is it, most cars have the PATS anti theaft system which can be a pain.

TT

[londonsean69]

The biggest problem is;

Mondeo = front wheel drive
Sierra = Rear wheel drive

So, no rear diff, driveshafts, propshaft, the rear hubs won't be driven, the front hubs are driven

Plus, the chassis, including suspension geometry is setup for Sierra running gear.

[danblack87]

Okay, so it's a bit of a nightmare.
The only real reason for wanting to use the mondeo is the tunability and power of the 2.0l engine.

So, it would be easier to use a Sierra for the parts, but then how hard would it be to switch the engine from a sierra engine to a Zetec 2.0 or a Duratec engine.

Sorry to sound to specific, but I have set my heart on a lightweight trackday car and I am just looking at BHP figures, I want something I can tune to around 200/250 bhp.

Thanks in advance, Dan.

[slimtater]

Lightweight?






Trackday car?






BEC? :cool:

[danblack87]

Lol. I have looked at a BEC but in all honesty my knowledge of mechanics is small, so I really dont feel up to the challenge of a BEC JUST yet...

But back to my question, If I did the build with a Sierra, how hard would it then be to put in a Duratec or Zetec engine?

Thanks for being patient with me and I appreciate all your replies.

Dan.

[Ryan]

welcome to the forum.

Lots of people start off by just using the donor car engine, usualy pinto or cvh if from a sierra. A cvh to zetec swop after iva is not that hard (or so I am lead to believe!)

Ryan.

Further to the above if building with pinto I believe its better to use duratec and if cvh use zetec, as the engines exhaust on the same sides.

[twinturbo]

Start with the sierra donor engine, run it for a few months the upgrade to the zetec.

Have you driven any high power RWD cars?

The power to weight ratio in the Roadster is very good even with a small engine.

TT

[danblack87]

Hi there,
I used to drive a bmw 320 rwd, 170bhp. Lots and lots of fun, especially without the traction control.

Okay, so now it looks like I need a sierra, any ideas on where to find a CHEAP one. Having just looked on ebay they are ALL expensive for what they are.

Any ideas fellas?

Many thanks,

Dan.

[londonsean69]

Hi there,
I used to drive a bmw 320 rwd, 170bhp. Lots and lots of fun, especially without the traction control.

Okay, so now it looks like I need a sierra, any ideas on where to find a CHEAP one. Having just looked on ebay they are ALL expensive for what they are.

Any ideas fellas?

Many thanks,

Dan.

The beemer weighs around a ton, maybe a bit more.

A track roadster with a zetec should be around 550kg. Power to weight is much better.

Yes, a Zetec can be mated to a RWD box, but it involves a fair amount of mechanics.

250bhp from a Zetec is seriously expensive.
A genuine 200bhp is expensive.

An ST170 lump with bike throttle bodies, emerald injection etc. puts out around 190bhp. From there, it's head mods, and that starts to cost ££££

If it was for track only, I would go BEC. No reverse box, mega light, can hammer the power on much earlier.

The install for a track BEC would probably be easier than for a Zetec RWD conversion. A lot less parts to source

[danblack87]

Hi Sean,
thanks for the reply, and thanks to everyone for their replies. I think I will stick to the sierra and then maybe an engine conversion at a later date.

So, for now, anyone know where I can source a cheap Sierra?

Kind regards,

Dan.

[twinturbo]

Sierras are on the up up up price wise.. Partly due to the kit car industry.


A 320 will weigh a lot more than a ton, unless it's an E30 in which case the 320 never made 170BHP, the 325 made just about 173 IIRC in E30 guise..

If we are talling E36 then that would be nearer 1300KG like the sierra I guess. Putting it at twice the weight of an avarage Roadster.

170/1.3 = 130BHP per Ton
80/.65 = 123BHP per ton

So on paper a CVH roadster would be very similar to the BMW, except you have better braking and better handling..


TT

[les g]

Dan
its really up to you what you want you do have to plan ahead though
a sierra donor is not 100% necessary .
a zetec a good motor
if you are building a trackday only car then its easy enough to source
the necessary bits you need but you wont be able to follow the the book to the letter..
for the rear you,ll need a sierra diff driveshafts hubs carriers and calipers you,ll probably end upputting new brakes on
for the front you,ll need sierra uprights and calipers again you,ll proably renew the the brakes
you,ll need a g,box mt75 or type 9
a bespoke propshaft
you could probably modify lots of different h/brake levers to do the job
and if you,re looking to use different clocks than a sierra dash etc..
also a homemade steering column would not be too much of a drama
especially if you are not going iva
lots of people start with a sierra but you could quite easily source the bits you need else where...
for eg.Rally design do a set of brand new front hubs and uprights for £99
not a bad price if the sierra donor ones need seals , bearings and a good clean etc
hth cheers les g

[HandyAndy]

welcome to the forum Dan,

as others have already given you lots of good advice, as Les has suggested its up to you what/how you build your car,

don,t dismiss the choice of going BEC, especially if its for track use only, lots of power,rear wheel drive , sequential gearbox, & a light car indeed.

As for using a sierra..... that is the most popular route of donor and they do come up now & again quite cheaply, i got my sierra for £150 with tax and test on it, just keep your eyes/ears open for when they pop up.

A zetec install is a very easy way to go, on bike carbs & megajolt an easy 170bhp or more if you use some uprated cams, but don,t forget that 170bhp in a car that weighs between 500 to 550kgs will be alot more agile than a saloon car with the same bhp, The Roadster has fantastic road holding meaning you can get the power down alot quicker than most "hot " saloons.

Enjoy the forum & good luck with your build.

cheers
andy

[danblack87]

So, basically, if I stick to the plan and buy a Sierra, its going to cost me an arm and a leg, if I want to use a mondeo, its going to be a mechanical nightmare with lots of other parts to source.

Are there any other cars that would work in a similar aspect to the sierra that would pretty much follow the book?

Kind regards,

Dan.

[HandyAndy]

So, basically, if I stick to the plan and buy a Sierra, its going to cost me an arm and a leg, if I want to use a mondeo, its going to be a mechanical nightmare with lots of other parts to source.

Are there any other cars that would work in a similar aspect to the sierra that would pretty much follow the book?

Kind regards,

Dan.

depends what you call an arm and a leg :D

my own build will be on the road (IVA tested) for a £3k budget, & that includes £500 set aside for the IVA test.

If you can find a cheap sierra & depending on which engine route you take you could even buy a brand new 2.0ltr zetec for £700 , it all depends how much you want to spend,

Other builders on the forum are using BMW donors, but then certain parts of the build process is not covered in "the book" & so this then asks for more mechanical problem solving ( but the forum members that have done it would help I,m sure ).

The sierra route is the easiest for the running gear, engine is then your choice whether it be zetec/duratec or bike engine, I say ford engines as they will be alot easier to fit to a ford gearbox etc.

hth.

cheers
andy

[danblack87]

Thanks for all the replies people. I think I will keep my eyes out for a cheap sierra and maybe a zetec engine a little later on.

Thanks,

Dan.

[HandyAndy]

Dan,
maybe put in your profile where you are located, just needs a rough location, as you might have forum members close to you who maybe can help etc.

cheers
andy

[danblack87]

Ive done that. Cheers.

[Bonzo]

Hi Dan

Welcome to the forum :)

I see that you have had plenty of good, sound advice :cool:

The cost of a Sierra donor will seem like a bargain when you sit back & realise just how many build parts you'll have collected in one go ;)

Enjoy the build when you make a start :)

[twinturbo]

Donor suitable cars come up on ebay all the time

BMW 3's seem popular as an alternative, and would probably be the next big donor.

A Scorpio would do for a number of parts, although their engine managment has PATS.

TT

[spud69]

Hi Dan

Welcome to the forum :)

I see that you have had plenty of good, sound advice :cool:

The cost of a Sierra donor will seem like a bargain when you sit back & realise just how many build parts you'll have collected in one go ;)

Enjoy the build when you make a start :)

Warm welcome Dan,

Agree with Ronnie there, even if you pay upto £300 for a good donor Sierra you're getting a lot of good quality parts for your money, and an easy base for upgrades for future pant wetting experiences.

Have Fun....AndyH

[twinturbo]

I have not bothered with a single donor, but I have a number of parts and have managed to source a number of others cheeaply.

Engine £50 from another of my projects
Gearbox £20 ( although I have another that cost £100)
Rear diff, Hubs, Drums £20 of fule as the were free.
Front uprights inc ball joints £45
Front brakes £from stock £10
Column £From Spares stock £10
Wheel £from spares stock £10
Alloys £from Spares stock £50
Clock £from spares stock £5
Servo £from spares stock £5
prop, starter £40

Makes about £265 spent on donor bits, no hassel of a shell to get rid of

Some shrewd work on ebay may see a similar haul for similar money. Your well placed location wise.

TT

[MikeB]

mx5's are quite cheap at the minute, westfield do a mx5 based kit,
I'm considering another build with an early mx5 1.6 engine and box.
Hopeing all the injection system will fit under the bonnet so no need for megajolt or bike carbs.
Plan would then be to link that to the sierra rear end (come up on ebay fairly regularly). I'll then source a sierra column and probably buy the front uprights and hubs from Rallye design.
Should have about 120 bhp, if I then need more power I'll just drop a 1.8 in later or turbo the 1.6 there's plenty of kits for the mx engine.

M

[slimtater]

You could just buy mine and drive to the track lol!

[danblack87]

Lol, thanks guys. Appreciate all the information and help.
Would love to just buy one and drive, but it would never be the same as driving a beast of a trackday machine that I actually made myself.

Cheers,

Dan.

[londonsean69]

Lol, thanks guys. Appreciate all the information and help.
Would love to just buy one and drive, but it would never be the same as driving a beast of a trackday machine that I actually made myself.

Cheers,

Dan.

You will not be able to build "a beast of a trackday machine" on the cheap.

Somewhere along the line, you will need to spend decent money.
First off, you need to define cheap. I reckon £150 for a sierra is a bargain.

BUT, with the 250bhp you want, you will need to look at either
highly tuned zetec lump £££££
Cosworth £££££
something totally different £££££ as everything else will need modding.

Once you have your 'cheap' Sierra and 250bhp engine, how are you going to stop it??
Performance cars have performance brakes for a reason.

Assuming you have the power, and the ability to stop that power, you will then need wide wheels to lay that power down on the track, more ££££, or decent tyres, again, more ££££

And even if you managed to get the above at reasonable rate, there is a minutae of things to consider, such as a propshaft that can take 300bhp.

I would be seriously impressed if anybody got a 250bhp roadster on the track (not the road, so saving shedloads on lights, IVA etc) for less than £5k.

People really need to realise that big BHP is not the be all and end all of these types of cars. If you had a 170bhp beemer, and a 170bhp roadster, I would lay money on which is most fun, and fastest around a track.

There is a reason the Caterham R500 is quicker on the top gear track of lies than a £1m Veyron.

Pick one, budget, or BHP

[danblack87]

I appreciate your honesty.
In that case, I would prefer the BHP all the way, even if I have to elongate the build a little to suit my budget.

In terms of 200-250bhp I was looking at a zetec or Duratec engine setup and was going to work on the mods for that one step at a time, not go the whole hog right away.

Thanks for the honesty.

Cheers,

Dan.

[londonsean69]

I appreciate your honesty.
In that case, I would prefer the BHP all the way, even if I have to elongate the build a little to suit my budget.

In terms of 200-250bhp I was looking at a zetec or Duratec engine setup and was going to work on the mods for that one step at a time, not go the whole hog right away.

Thanks for the honesty.

Cheers,

Dan.

A well setup BEC with around 150bhp will smash a CEC day in day out round a track, 250bhp is only just usable, by a good driver, in something as light as this.
You won't be able to put the power down without risking theback end stepping out all the time.

I thought about all of this long and hard, and my build isn't exactly budget. I had a deposit down on a 260bhp turbo zetec when the seller pulled out. I am now undecided as to which direction I will go with the car. But, if I have 180bhp I would be more than happy, given the performance capable from a well put together and setup car such as this.

I see you keep going on about 'cheap'. I have been told may times, "Buy cheap, buy twice". Perhaps if you gave people an idea of the budget available for your build, they might be able to provide a more relevant suggestion.

There is a difference between cheap, and good value.

You say your knowledge of mechanics is small, in which case you will be paying someone to get whatever engine it is you chose up to spec. Engine builders are not cheap.

As an example
There is a very easy way to a 250bhp zetec. It's called £7700 +vat from raceline

Or, you have to turbo a normal zetec, which will cost around £2-3k, plus a fair amount of mechanical savvy.

Sorry to piss on your chips, but I think you are being totally unrealistic.
You want 250bhp - why??
You think you can handle 250bhp in a 550kg car?
You want it cheap, yet, by your own admission, you can't do it yurself.
You have chosen to ignore what a lot of people on here have given you as good advice.

This is part of the reason I have stayed off the forum for so long.

Nobody seems to know how to use the search function
Everybody wants something for nothing
Loads of people joining have totally unrealistic expectations eg. 250bhp for "Cheap"


If that sounds like a rant, it's because it is. I'm pissed off with people who refuse to listen to any bit of advice given to them, and keep asking the same question until they get the answer they think they want.

If you want a track day car, look on locostbuilders, there are ex-race cars going for around 4k. Cost and performance is an exponential equation. If you want to go twice as fast, it will cost a f*ck site more than twice the money. Anybody can go fast in a straight line, where big BHP makes a difference, corner speed is where it's at in the real world

[twinturbo]

I don't see why a big HP car has to cost as lot more,

Brakes from the sierra stop 230BHP XR4x4 Turbo Technics cars so should be up to the job of stoppign a little 7.

There are wngines out there that can produce 220-240 BHP for a few hundred pounds.

Propshaft will not be a problem, sierra props will take BIG power.


But it is all a bit unneccesary..

TT

[mark]

250 bhp in a seven style car is alot unless you are a very competant driver, its easy to get caught up in the big bhp conversations but its really not required to have a fast roadster as they are so light.

I have had a few bmws including an m3. If you think a 3 series with 170bhp is fun in a car that weighs the best part of 1500kg, then 150bhp should be more than enough to keep you happy in a seven.

Spuds car running 2lt zetec/bike carbs is easily as quick as an m3 upto about 80mph and would run rings around it on the twisties :D

I had a big power 300zx and was always worried when coming out of corners that it was trying to kill me :eek: the back end would go at 80mph in a straight line if you provoked it and thats not fun. If my roadster behaved the same i wouldnt be happy about it.

But each to their own and good luck

[deezee]

My 280bhp, 1200kgs car is about fast enough for me (accelerating not top speed). I love the lunacy of it all. But also it doesn't handle as well as I'd like. Being mid engined, when it gets out of control, its gets RAPIDLY out of control.

Everytime I think of people going fast around corners, I think of this story

http://prison-diary.blogspot.com/

[danblack87]

Hi guys,
Thanks for all your replies, I appreciate them all, positive and negative.

As far as my kit car build, im going to go with the Sierra build and see how the car is when finished (a long time away :p ) and then gauge the speed.

I admit I hadn't really thought about WEIGHT in terms of the bhp and was just thinking of something that was faster than my previous car.

But now, It's going to be a classic build until I know what Im dealing with.

Thanks.

Dan.

[davidimurray]

A great example of how weight affects performance is FSAE/Formula Student type cars. Typically cars will weigh less than 200kg but only have 50-70hp as they are limited by a 20mm diameter restrictor in the intake system.

So what happens when you put a 470bhp Merc E55 AMG against one of these cars .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." - Colin Chapman, the legendary F1 engineer

[Tilly819]

A great example of how weight affects performance is FSAE/Formula Student type cars. Typically cars will weigh less than 200kg but only have 50-70hp as they are limited by a 20mm diameter restrictor in the intake system.

So what happens when you put a 470bhp Merc E55 AMG against one of these cars .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." - Colin Chapman, the legendary F1 engineer


thanks for that dave i was wondering what to do for my next project.... :D , i recon with some slight modification you could get one of those threw IVA

tilly

[GraemeWebb]

A great example of how weight affects performance is FSAE/Formula Student type cars. Typically cars will weigh less than 200kg but only have 50-70hp as they are limited by a 20mm diameter restrictor in the intake system.

So what happens when you put a 470bhp Merc E55 AMG against one of these cars .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmp1LiCY5dM

"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." - Colin Chapman, the legendary F1 engineer

Another famous Colin Chapman saying was 'add less weight'

[spud69]

Great video David.....;)

Just shows what it's all about......Well Done...:D Would be nice to see them race around some twisty track.

Cheers..AndyH