Someone doesn't like the roadster .....

[davidimurray]

http://kit-car-builds.socialgo.com/magazine/read/why-i-dont-like-the-haynes-roadster_57.html

[twinturbo]

My word,

He's got the fish, sausage, haggis, meat pie and parmo as well as the chip sitting on his shoulder!

TT

[Bonzo]

Each to their own I suppose :)

I guess you do not need to look any further than Kent for the author of that :rolleyes:

Funny how most of the followers are avid GTS builders ;) :D

[Talonmotorsport]

I think most of what has been said there is fair comment in terms of design and production of mass parts from an engineering point of view. If I where making a chassis on a mass production run I would not have used 3mm here 5mm there 19x19 25x25 different bushes and so on. How ever the idea of the both the Champion and Gibbs books is that it was never intended to be a mass production 'kit car' it is ment to be a guide to building 1 car personaly from scratch. The fact that people are selling pre made chassis, running gear and fibreglass body work is there choice to do so for a very limited market.
'Kit car builder' seams to be an established manufacturer and I have a few ideas of who this might be, but 'he' seams to have had his nose put out of place by having to spend more time and money rejiging to follow a market trend. The 'locost' had a very good 15yr + run and was adapted to suit mx5, sierra, nissan etc running gear, the roadster will no dought go the same way in delopment with the mx5, bmw and numerous others yet to be seen.
Every market has to change over time as parts either become harder to find or legislation changes to suit new laws, this means change to every business involved in producing parts related to the market.
I think that post smells a little of sour grapes perhaps?
Every thing in this post is just my take on how I see it , no offence is intended to any body who may be involved in any of the above.

[spud69]

Oh Dear,

Somebody isn't very happy, think i'll have a parmo with his chips - should keep me fed for a month.

The car is an updated design of the Ron Champion, if parts where compatible then it wouldn't be "updated". As far as i have been told the suspension setup and geometry was designed on Lotus's own suspension software, and certainly builders are getting very good value for money for parts that they choose to buy, or build themselves.

We could go on forever.....AndyH

[twinturbo]

The one valid point, is the donor one.

As with the locost "escort" the sierra is now costing a lot to find for most.

Somone needs to look at the development of BMW or MX5 components to secure the longevity of the roadster gene pool.

TT

[fabbyglass]

I wouldn't pay any attention to what Sir George says folks, he suckered the kit car press for awhile but ponder this....why jack a highly paid job within F1 circles to go make cheap 'n cheerful Locosts?...nuf said methinks:p

[spud69]

Thought it was him Mark......;)

[fabbyglass]

Yep,and harped on about how the Roadster should have been the same size as the mc sorley......because GTS have got moulds to suit that called the w7de or whatever name it's called:rolleyes:


Locost GT40 anyone?........i wonder who's body work got ripped off for that then...pmsl

[alga]

I think a lot of these are valid criticisms. Was there any benefit in changing the size of suspension bushes and brackets? Also, he's got a point about the chassis width. Standards are good! Also, he's right about "it's available at MK Engineering". There are no dimensions for the mushroom adapter in the book, an important part of the suspension, just a pointer to MK Engineering. Thanks to Ronnie and this forum for putting it right!

Length of wishbones -- pfft, Locost was based around the track width of Escort Mk2, Haynes Roadster uses unmodified Sierra rear axle and steering geometry. It's natural the length of wishbones will not match.

Albertas

[fabbyglass]

Well if i was doing a book i would make it different too, why use what others use? It aint rocket science to knock up a jig now is it I mean the book SHOWS you how!!!!
As for the bushes, it's only the internal doodah that is different....:rolleyes:

[flyerncle]

Thats not a chip on his shoulder its a bag of spuds (no offence Andy H) someone has obviously twisted his tail at sometime or another.

Wont be building a Roadster then ......:rolleyes:

[davidimurray]

And ironically the author sells parts for the Haynes Roadster!!

[mark]

As previously said, the book is written to enable the home builder to build one car, as a one off for themselves so alot of those points arent an issue

Also i think its a good thing that its sized in the middle a locost is too small for me but a plus 4 will have some room to spare so the haynes is perfect!

It sounds like he just doesn't like the fact its made in a way that's not as convenient for him to reproduce parts for

[Spikehaus]

I guess everyone is entiled to their opinion on the Roadster, as long as nobody from the our happy forum joins the Kit Car Builders Forum, the comments are worthless and will soon be a distant memory.

Judging by the address of Kit Car Builders and its association with Superlooms, i am pretty sure it has a pretty minimal following.!!
:p

[les g]

i agree with all of the above.........
if he answered his phone or responded to people trying
to contact him.....
we could club together and send him a saucer of milk......"sour milk "
but as usual he wouldnt respond or claim he never received it!!!!!!!!!!!!
cheers les g

[Locky]

I found the part where he states the McSorley chassis is 4" wider and generally Americans build them quite funny. Hamburger and fries with a soda anyone? (no offence to Americans intended)

Surely the haynes book is used as a guide, its the same with diy furniture books where some materials are difficult to source, and so find solutions not problems.

[Twin]

It reads to me like the Gibbs build was to help with the original book. I thought Chris's was a similar build with updated methods!

[Trif]

As a newish member to the forum I have no idea who the author is. If I met him I'd probably point out the bleeding obvious IT'S NOT A KITCAR IT'S A SELF BUILD CAR!, as such it evolves. If people want to make parts for other builders that's great but don't throw your dummy out of the pram if the design evolves. If he doesn't like then maybe he'd like to write the book as he thinks it aught to be written and ensure that there is NO affliation to any parts suppler!

[TSM Locost]

I agree with trif, maybe if you look after your customers then they will back you and your products. :D :D :D :D :

[rapidtornado]

Long live the roadster I say! I might think twice now about where I am going to source my parts, I'd much rather support a company who is promoting our car rather than business who obviously doesn't care!:(

One or two valid points in his rant. To support TT's comments thought I think it's important we (sound like a seasoned pro here... don't be misled:p ) look at the next generation of locost as I for sure found it really difficult to source a Sierra and was really interested in using a Beamer set-up but just didn't have the confidence to go for it.... a revised edition to the book with beamer/mx-5 specific build would be good in my opinion;)

[Big Vern]

I wouldn't pay any attention to what Sir George says folks, he suckered the kit car press for awhile but ponder this....why jack a highly paid job within F1 circles to go make cheap 'n cheerful Locosts?...nuf said methinks:p

I'm with you on this one Fabby. Didn't think he'd stay quiet for long
As for his 'F1' career, I have previously worked for many years at a high end motorsport outfit I can say he wouldn't have lasted long turning out the stuff he did and treating customers/clients the way he did.
It's just sour grapes and barely worth a responce.
If the kit car press (itself something of a shambles in recent years) takes notice of him then more fool them! After all it's not like they haven't heard of his reputation.....

The 'book' does need updating to suit new donors such as MX-5 and BMW but surely that's partly what the forum is about is it not? The supply of any donor will eventually dry up as it did with the Escort for the Champion locost. To keep the roadster going WE have to inovate with the use of alternate donors.

I also agree with Talonmotorsport, All businesses have to adapt to changing trends and fashions or go under, thats just business! It might be difficult for him but so was supplying the parts we'd paid for - Nuff Said!

[alga]

If I met him I'd probably point out the bleeding obvious IT'S NOT A KITCAR IT'S A SELF BUILD CAR!, as such it evolves.

What's the difference between a kit and a self-build? Most people buy the chassis at least in the flatpack form, some buy it ready made. Apparently, lots of people buy the wishbones pre-made. Virtually everyone buys the bodywork.

A friend of mine built a Tiger Cat. He bought a kit from Poland. The kit included a powdercoated chassis, front wishbones and I think uprights, and GRP panels. The rest he's sourced and built himself. The only essential difference is that there's a single company behind the Tiger design, whereas with Haynes there are several companies offering components. But even then I think the Tiger kit was made in Poland by a franchise: http://www.t-c.pl/.

[AshG]

mr george is well known and usually ignored. as for an updated book its in the pipeline but the single seater is coming first.

[Trif]

What's the difference between a kit and a self-build? Most people buy the chassis at least in the flatpack form, some buy it ready made. Apparently, lots of people buy the wishbones pre-made. Virtually everyone buys the bodywork.

A friend of mine built a Tiger Cat. He bought a kit from Poland. The kit included a powdercoated chassis, front wishbones and I think uprights, and GRP panels. The rest he's sourced and built himself. The only essential difference is that there's a single company behind the Tiger design, whereas with Haynes there are several companies offering components. But even then I think the Tiger kit was made in Poland by a franchise: http://www.t-c.pl/.

Hi Alga
I think your post starts to define the difference between a kit-car and a self-build. The distinction isn’t “black and white” and is perhaps raises a debate without a “one size fits all” definition. My personal view is I think of a kit car is a bolt together option married to the donor parts, generally controlled by a manufacturer (as you said). What builders don’t have, generally, is the choice of make or buy.

Building the Roadster we have choice, we can choose to make the parts that we feel able to, seek help and advise about the parts we don’t feel confident about and possibly buy them ready made if we feel the make option is beyond us. Let’s not kid ourselves, without the forum there is insufficient information in the book to make everything.

I personally choose to make as much as possible, this sometimes means learning new skills, make jigs and fixtures and often involves a hell of a lot more labour than ordering the finished parts online. It might be “sad” but for me this is part of the fun and the reason why I chose a “self build” option. Clearly some people, who are making this car, who have the skills, tooling, time and inclination, offer a range of ready made parts. I think this is great because it expands the number of people who embark on this mad project, offers the opportunity for some enterprising people to start businesses and for others it offers a way of raising some much needed money to fund their build. Because they choose to offer this service doesn’t stop it from being a self-build for those of us who choose this route.
Trif

[spud69]

Spot on there Trif.....;)

The original Ron Champion was based on the Cortina, evolved to the Escort then onto the Sierra. The Chris Gibbs version was written a few years ago and has started with the Sierra and will evolve to the MX5 and BMW.

We all have to adapt which is all part of the industry.

Back to Work......AndyH

Hi Alga
I think your post starts to define the difference between a kit-car and a self-build. The distinction isn’t “black and white” and is perhaps raises a debate without a “one size fits all” definition. My personal view is I think of a kit car is a bolt together option married to the donor parts, generally controlled by a manufacturer (as you said). What builders don’t have, generally, is the choice of make or buy.

Building the Roadster we have choice, we can choose to make the parts that we feel able to, seek help and advise about the parts we don’t feel confident about and possibly buy them ready made if we feel the make option is beyond us. Let’s not kid ourselves, without the forum there is insufficient information in the book to make everything.

I personally choose to make as much as possible, this sometimes means learning new skills, make jigs and fixtures and often involves a hell of a lot more labour than ordering the finished parts online. It might be “sad” but for me this is part of the fun and the reason why I chose a “self build” option. Clearly some people, who are making this car, who have the skills, tooling, time and inclination, offer a range of ready made parts. I think this is great because it expands the number of people who embark on this mad project, offers the opportunity for some enterprising people to start businesses and for others it offers a way of raising some much needed money to fund their build. Because they choose to offer this service doesn’t stop it from being a self-build for those of us who choose this route.
Trif

[HandyAndy]

There,s an interesting thread just been posted over on Locost Builders......

Titled "How long do I wait"......nothing more to say really :rolleyes: :D

.....or maybe thats why he wants the Ron Champion chassis to still be the main chassis folk are building.......takes so long to supply the parts folk order from him, by the time they get them , a new car has been designed :eek: :rolleyes:

cheers
andy