2 Litre Pinto Tuning ?

[Bonzo]

Although this question is kinda off topic, I thought I would post it here as it is relevant to anyone making use of the 2 litre Pinto engine.

As some of you will know, after a tip off from Mike ( TSM Locost ) Junior managed to find his dream daily driver recently, namely a Sierra Sapphire.

The only downside from Juniors point of view was that this Sierra is fitted with a 1.6 litre Pinto engine & he is finding it a wee bit sluggish :D

I have managed to get hold of a 205 block, 2 litre Pinto engine .... Don't laugh, I thought about many engine options but to make life easy for me, pinto it is as it should be more or less plug n play.

To that end, what basic tuning options are there for this engine !!??

Kinda thinking, Kent FR32 fast road cam, better exhaust system & maybe upgrading the Webber twin choke carb.

The engine came with a Webber Twin choke but I have no idea what model carb it is :confused:
All I can find is a tag with: 72 HF KA & A 2C29 stamped on it.

I know I could go down the bike carb & Jolt route but would much prefer a simple plug n play engine swap for the time being ;)

Any advice would be most welcome :)

[spud69]

This might give you some guidance Ronnie - but not cheap

http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-guide-pages/ford-sohc-pinto-tuning-guide.html

[twinturbo]

I would forget the webber and go down the Bike carb route ;)

You should be able to use the 1.6 ignition system ( it's a basic electonic setup )

You can spend a fortune tuning a pinto... I would do the bike carbs and if you can find a seconf hand 4 branch then do that.

Then keep an eye out for somethign a bit more powerful.

One guy on the sierra forum has just had his 2.3 16V Bike carbed engine dynoed at over 170BHP ( NAT ASP ) which aint bad , and there's more to come from it. Look arround arround and these engines turn up cheep.

TT

[Bonzo]

Cheers Andy & Rob :)

I did have a wee read of the Burton Pinto tuning guide & to be honest, it kinda lost me by the time I got part way through it. :o

Yes, you are both definitely right about the cost of tuning parts, one money pit I don't really want to go to.
Don't mind paying out for another Cam if I am going to gain a worthwhile power increase.

You have me thinking Rob, I have a set of Suzuki GXR600 carbs here, didn't know that it might be possible to use them & keep the existing Pinto sparks.

I have a Megajolt unit here but don't want the hassle of rigging it all up at this moment in time.

As you say, there far far better engine options available.

Heck, the spare 1.8 115 ps Zetec engine I have here would give the Sierra a bit of a boost ( Just don't have the energy to do the conversion at the moment ) :(

Thanks for the input chaps. :)

[MarkB]

Best option for smiles per quid spent is fit a bike engine, but the Haynes is a bit big and lardy really.

[twinturbo]

Bike engine in a Sierra would be BAD :rolleyes:

TT

[MarkB]

Sierra's unless XR4's are bad anyway and not a patch on a Capri or MK1 or MK11 Escort

[TSM Locost]

Hi Bonzo

There's a 4 page spread in CKC this month on bike carbs and mentions pinto's

[twinturbo]

http://www.classicfordmag.co.uk/2011/07/15/the-definitive-guide-to-bike-carbs/

http://www.totalvauxhall.co.uk/files/legacy/TOV64.tech60697.pdf

[Bonzo]

Cheers Mike :)

will get the good lady wife to pick a copy up when she goes shopping.

Rob

Forgot to mention that Junior is lurking about on the Sierra Forum.
Being as he is a shy little flower I doubt that he has introduced himself yet :rolleyes: :D :D

[robo]

2ltr pinto with cam,carbs headers is plenty good enough for a hop up from standard and any more than that will make the insurance co have a cardiac.:eek:
Bob

[Bonzo]

2ltr pinto with cam,carbs headers is plenty good enough for a hop up from standard and any more than that will make the insurance co have a cardiac.:eek:
Bob

Yes Bob, there is that aspect to it ;)

At 23 with 4 years NCD, Juniors insurance premiums are still quite steep :(


Rob

Thank you for those links :)

[wylliezx9r]

Best option for smiles per quid spent is fit a bike engine, but the Haynes is a bit big and lardy really.

Big and lardy compared to what? A Push bike ???????

[baz-r]

if cheap easy power is your quest look round for a good cam (new or used) as pinto bits are cheap and a plenty,
get the old head off give it a decoke and a bit of home porting while your at it befor it goes in
next mod would be a 4 branch befor the carbs fro me

[Bonzo]

On Wednesday I managed to spend a full day in the workshop ( For the first time in several months ) :o

With Junior doing the Donkey work, I managed to more or less fully strip the Pinto engine down.
I must say, it was a real joy to be working on an engine from an age that I am most comfortable with.

Seems that the Ebay punt has worked out fine & the engine is in a reasonable condition.
It would appear that I have got a better deal than I had thought.

Let me explain, the engine was sold as 205 block Pinto for spares/core stock & was believed to have originated from a P100 pick up.
Went for this particular engine as it was complete, had a 5 speed type 9 gearbox & most importantly, local to me ( Few & far between in this neck of the woods )

The first thing I done when my Two lads bought it all home was to cross reference the engine number.
The engine number started with the letters GS, this relates to the engine being produced in March 1986.
This would appear to rule out the P100 as according to my research, the P100 was not produced until 1988.

On proper examination of the cylinder head, it would appear that it is an injection head ( Pear shaped inlet ports )

All components removed are standard & are original Ford parts.

I did have a concern that this 2 litre engine may have been the low compression version but if it turns out to be a full injection engine I will be happy. :)

All in all it looks as if the engine has never been stripped & is totally original.
That said, still have more research to do to confirm that the block was produced for an injection engine.

Markings on the pistons are a very grey area for me, read, I havn't got a clue what they mean :D
The only visible ID on the piston crown is the part no: 832 E 0186, a large 2 ( I assume to mean 2 Litre ) & the customary direction arrow.

Spent almost an entire day yesterday researching all things Pinto & only finding small snippets of info.

Now have a rough plan on what I am going to do to this engine but still have to try & find out if the cylinder head is suitable for use with unleaded petrol !!??
I have checked for the Ford identifier code ( Adjacent to the spark plug ) & all I see is a capital letter " I "
This mark is not listed as being an unleaded stamp but from my research it is commonly found & I have yet to find out the meaning of this mark :confused:

I would be gutted if I pay out £150 for an unleaded conversion just to find out that it was converted already.
Looking at the valves & seats, it is obvious that the engine has a good few miles on it but can find no substantial wear on any of the valve train.

Valve guides very good, valve stems very good, no pitting to the valve faces or the seats.
Not knowing how long this engine has been laid up, it could be entirely possible that this engine has not been subjected to any long term use with unleaded fuel, the lack of wear could definitely be a Red Herring so I guess it would pay to give it some serious thought when it comes to conversion.

Well best to get back to the research.

[TSM Locost]

Burton Power
SOHC Pinto Engines

All engines produced after 01/89 are suitable for use with unleaded fuel. For all other engines, an identification mark (adjacent to No 4 spark plug) must be present to designate suitability for unleaded. These are:
* 1.6 - M, MM or N, NN
* 1.8 - S, SS
* 2.0 - P, PP or R, RR

:(

I would have thought that all injection would be converted from new, looks like i am wrong, Bugger.

[Bonzo]

Hi Mike

Yes, those were the kind of marks I was expecting to find.

Went to my local engine re builders yesterday to find out some general machining prices.
One of the lads thought the injection heads would all be unleaded & the other one said he wasn't so sure of that :D
Pity their father wasn't there as he is old school enough to remember the Pinto engine.

I guess if I can't find out for definite, then the conversion route it will have to be.
Don't want to be putting some shiny new gear in the bottom end just to drop a valve after a few thousand miles :eek: :(

[twinturbo]

20 is a standard 2.0 block
205 is an injection block.
200 is a cosworth 4x4 block
204 is a thick wall block (transit I belive)

TT

[Bonzo]

Cheers for the info Rob :)

I might be able to cross reference the con-rod part numbers when I turn the block over & pull the pistons, I believe the injection engine had slightly stronger rods.

To be honest, so far the only semi-serious wear I have found is on the big end shells, slightly scuffed & the big end crank journals showing minor wear accordingly.

If it was only for a run about, I would simply treat the bottom end to a new set of rings, new mains, new big ends & light hone.
Run the head as is because there is nothing wrong in that department that a quick re-lap of the valves wouldn't cure.

The master plan at the moment is to have the block bored out to 93mm ( 2.1 conversion )
Full crank re-grind & fit HD bearings.
Convert the head to unleaded ( If needed )
Fit a full Kent FR32 fast road cam.
Source more suitable exhaust manifold.

As for fuelling, see how the Webber twin choke performs first then go from there.

Will it all be worth it !!?? Probably not but that's the way Junior is set on going & if I am honest, just about as much work as I can handle at this moment of time :o :D

On the subject of the 2.1 conversion, has anyone heard of TOTO pistons ??

I can get a set of TOTO pistons for about £80 cheaper than AE ones.
Just don't want to buy a pile of crap just to save a few pounds.

Thanks for your input guys :)

[robo]

Dont worry to much about the toto pistons ronnie they are just a cheap piston from a large jap piston maker. All this stuff is made to a spec and is probably no different to the hepolite pistons we are used to.

Bob

[Bonzo]

Cheers bob :)

I spoke to our local engine builder yesterday, dad wasn't there but the lads said more or less the same.

They are quite happy to do the oversize re-bore but asked if I could supply the pistons as the last time they done a 2.1 conversion, they had trouble obtaining them.
Should probably explain, they are a very small company but have been going ever since I was a teenager.
As usual & like me, being in the ass end of nowhere I guess they are limited to a small handful of suppliers.

The TOTO pistons ( 2.25mm oversize ) Are £120 for the set inclusive of rings & gudgeon pins.

The AE pistons are £220 per set, again inclusive of rings & pins.

the price difference of £100 is almost enough to pay for the re-bore cost ( I incorrectly stated £80 earlier )

[baz-r]

what about wossner pistons? i think thay do hi comp pistons 2mm oversize
no idea of price

[Bonzo]

Yes Woosner pistons are available Baz

Priced at £560 per set, bit out of my league for this particular job.

If I were to go for top notch pistons then it would be silly not to go for steel rods, that'll push the bill up to £900 :eek:

Add the machining costs & other sundry items I could see that back of almost £1500 just for the block,

Almost double the cost of buying a new a new 2 litre Zetec engine.

All of that said, I know this job is going to cost a fair bit, probably not far off the cost of a new Zetec engine.

Wish I had the energy to sling something a bit more exotic in Juniors Sierra.
Can manage the bench work fine & supervise the Two lads during the engine swap but that's about it :( :o

[robo]

Found this a while ago Ronnie.

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/PINTO.htm

Bob

edit. and some carbs on pistonheads http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3359083.htm

[snapper]

There are some simple tricks to get more from a Pinto
Fr32 or 33
Thinner Felpro head gasket
Bike carbs
Megajolt
Should get you 130bhp

The injection head, the one with the egg shaped inlet ports is worth 5 to 10 bhp
The Felpro gasket will give 9.7 to 1.
10.5 to 1 max for cast pistons
Rev limit for the rods 7200 and that should limit your cam choice.
Megajolt releases the power that a standard dizzy will strangle
Megajolt will give you easier starting, better idle, more power and better fuel economy.
It's not hard to fit and set up.

[Bonzo]

Bob

Many thanks for that link, some very interesting reading there. :cool:

Snapper

Many thanks for that run down :)

That list is more or less where I want to end up with the job in hand.

Block is currently at the engineers having a re-bore to 93mm & the crank re-ground.
Leaving the re-assembly of the block to them as they will warrant that part of the build.

I was talking about camshaft choice with my eldest son last night, I favour the Kent FR32 & the eldest thinks the Kent FR33 will be a better option ?

I don't know if anyone has an opinion to share :)

From Burton power

Kent FR32 - Fast Road. Power band 2500-7000rpm. Valve lift 11.2mm (inlet) 10.9mm (exhaust). 285 deg (inlet) 280 deg (exhaust) duration. Carb only.

Kent FR33 - Fast Road/Rally. Power band 3000-7500rpm. Valve lift 11.7mm (inlet) 11.3mm (exhaust). 300 deg (inlet) 297 deg (exhaust) duration. Carb only.

[baz-r]

fr32 will be more driveable
dont go to wild for road use it will make it undrivable in traffic and come mot time your hc's (unburnt fuel) will be sky high and idle will be poor :mad:
not to mention econimy

cams just alow an engine to make more power at diffrent bands of revs so a cam with a higher rev rating will have poorer power in the lower revs
its always easyer to make more power gains at higher rpms much harder at lower ones
think of it as robbing peter to pay paul

[robo]

Lots of free horsepower to be had which is the way I go every time, good balance job +5/10%,underdive pulleys + 5/11 hp, freeflow exhaust +5/10 hp, mild gas flow and 3 angle valve job, block decking,head cc matching, port matching and there is even a few free horsepower to be had out of a waterpump. Ditto on the cam sometimes less is more. All of the other stuff mentioned here is also adding efficiency which has to be a good thing and only really costs a bit of time.

bob

[Bonzo]

Lots of free horsepower to be had which is the way I go every time, good balance job +5/10%,underdive pulleys + 5/11 hp, freeflow exhaust +5/10 hp, mild gas flow and 3 angle valve job, block decking,head cc matching, port matching and there is even a few free horsepower to be had out of a waterpump. Ditto on the cam sometimes less is more. All of the other stuff mentioned here is also adding efficiency which has to be a good thing and only really costs a bit of time.

bob

Funny you should say all of that Bob !

I collected the re-built block on Monday & had a good old natter with the engine builder & that is more or less, a word for word account of his advice to me. :)

He's a bit old school like me, been in his current unit since 1980

Turns out he is building a Robin Hood 2B ( Like me, very slowly ) & using a 2.1 Pinto in that.
Gave me a grand tour of his handywork & a fair few pointers too :cool:

Cost so far ..... Ouch baby, very ouch :D :D