Steering Rack Lock Stops?

[skov]

I've been playing around with the steering on my build and I seem to have a ludicrous amount of wheel travel with the MX5 uprights and Escort rack.
I'm pretty sure I'll need to fit some kind of lock stops to reduce it, as it's currently limited by things touching each other that shouldn't...
On the upside the steering should be nice and sharp :D

Anyways, is it ok to just pull the gaitors back on the rack and bolt/clamp something in there to reduce the travel?
If so, any idea on what I can use?
And finally... is IVA man going to want to look underneath the steering gaitors?

[twinturbo]

The lock should already be limited...

TT

[skov]

It is limited to 2.9 turns when it's got nothing attached to it.
However when it's attached to the uprights it can't reach it's normal endstops as other things become the limiting factor...

[shh120m]

Il have a look at ours tommorow john, im pretty sure everythings fine, if not a 2.4 rack may be more appropriate.

[twinturbo]

ratio should not make a difference, sounds like the wheel offset is wrong and sitting too far in.

TT

[skov]

That'd be good thanks Nathan.

The places I'm having trouble with at full lock are the rack extensions touching the lower wishbone, and the track rod end skimming the inside of the wheel:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ma21Zxf44w4/TzQut0OmaaI/AAAAAAAAIKg/0guklV2Dbsk/s512/S5033192.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d9XPIhuI07U/TzQuxHazuaI/AAAAAAAAIK4/ijlrR5A4NPI/s640/S5033201.JPG

To be fair my suspension isn't even vaugely set up right at the moment and these problems might go away with a bit of adjustment.
I still think the amount of wheel travel is a bit more than is really needed though!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P-sB9zWHM1s/TzQuqZDVahI/AAAAAAAAIKE/K0ls4drATAM/s640/S5033188.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Gq3iJtKjEhw/TzQuqVDpGOI/AAAAAAAAIKI/dpkla5ZdDQI/s640/S5033189.JPG

[michael92]

I know its not helpfull but it would be great for drifting :P

[skov]

I know its not helpfull but it would be great for drifting :P

I do enjoy a bit of oversteer now and a again, but I can't see me ever getting it that sideways, lol

[ozzy1]

Ok stupid question time :D

Is it like that on both sides or just the drivers side?
Did u turn the rack to full lock one way then turn it back half the ratio to get it centralised?

[skov]

No such thing as a stupid question!

I've got both sides set up more or less the same, and the wheels both point forward when the rack is in its central position.
So yes, in short both sides are like that!

[AshG]

looks to me like you have got way too much lock there.

[skov]

My thoughts exactly.
I'm guessing the MX5 steering arms must be a bit shorter than the Sierra ones. I've done some googling, and other people have had similar issues mating the MX5 uprights to the escort rack.

As a temporary bodge (likely to become a permanent solution knowing me!) I've added a 20mm wide bit of pipe to each end of the rack, held on with jubilee clips.

I've now got a much more sensible amount of steering travel, and no interference problems :)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oDeDhkJC1bs/TzmTFPhOKaI/AAAAAAAAIL8/_Api6doCdn8/s640/S5033237.JPG

Once the gaiters are back in place they're nicely hidden away from the prying eyes of IVA man (hopefully!).

[Cyberbeej]

Having not looked at my car in a while, Something sticks in my brain about turning the trackrod end the other way on the ford hubs but not sure about the mx5 setup.
For good suspension design it should be almost horizontal when sitting in the straight ahead position.

Messing with the steering rack need to be done by a professional.

Just my thoughts but i could be wrong...........

[skov]

Having not looked at my car in a while, Something sticks in my brain about turning the trackrod end the other way on the ford hubs but not sure about the mx5 setup.

Surely the ball joints wouldn't go in the other way round as the taper would go the wrong way?

[twinturbo]

Surely the ball joints wouldn't go in the other way round as the taper would go the wrong way?

Correct.

TT

[Cyberbeej]

Surely the ball joints wouldn't go in the other way round as the taper would go the wrong way?

True but that can be sorted, surely you want the best angles for the handling to be good?

[baz-r]

im with ash on this one way too much lock your not going to use unless its a london taxi it and without looking at one in the flesh its hard to see whats wrong. could get some body contact too.
moveing the rack forward/back/up/down may help as if your rack and track rods are too inline with the TRE pivot points could be a problem also look at akerman angles(both wheels folowing athe right arc in a corner).
isnt a std escort rack abit too long on a std ford based car?
a nylon bump stop(last resort) will need to one solid ring you dont want bits breaking and floating around in the ends of your rack jamming it up trust me!

[baz-r]

thinking about it the effective length of the arm on the hub shorter on a mazda unit?
and the postioning of the rack the same as a ford base car?

[skov]

As a temporary bodge (likely to become a permanent solution knowing me!) I've added a 20mm wide bit of pipe to each end of the rack, held on with jubilee clips.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oDeDhkJC1bs/TzmTFPhOKaI/AAAAAAAAIL8/_Api6doCdn8/s640/S5033237.JPG



DON'T DO THIS!!!

Sorry, that was a really bad idea!!!
I had a peek at them today and the jubilee clips have taken quite a battering and come loose...

I've removed them and ordered a couple of shaft clamp collars to replace them (RS Compenents part number 691-8124):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DjDqITgmA48/UXKDnMx5oAI/AAAAAAAAJYA/gvo8Vp2chuU/s378/R6918092-01.jpg

I'll let you know how I get on...

[Stot]

You would be amazed at the amount of force applied to those stops at full lock. :eek:

I'm looking at this myself at the moment and taking into account the amount of bump steer effect I'm seeing I think I'm going to shorten the rack, 2 birds one stone and all that.

Cheers
Stot

[PorkChop]

There's bound to be a proper part for them; lots of production cars have lock stops fitted.

Are metal ones a good idea?

[Davidbolam]

I was looking at this as my jubilee clips have taken a clattering as well and I haven't driven the car anywhere yet.

My brother had a similar problem when he owned a ford puma and put on larger wheels and managed to get some lock stops from ford. They were originally from a Ka. Not sure if these would fit on the Escort rack.

I do like the look of the RS components clamps. May give them a try.

David

[skov]

Just fitted the RS shaft clamps. They seem to fit the rack perfectly and clamp up nice and tight.
Hopefully they'll last a bit longer than my previous attempt :o

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3mtWS6QKKzU/UXrF4bAHDeI/AAAAAAAAJYM/HXRDwxq-HAY/s640/S5033448.JPG

[Davidbolam]

Just fitted the RS shaft clamps. They seem to fit the rack perfectly and clamp up nice and tight.
Hopefully they'll last a bit longer than my previous attempt :o

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3mtWS6QKKzU/UXrF4bAHDeI/AAAAAAAAJYM/HXRDwxq-HAY/s640/S5033448.JPG

I bought a couple of rack clamps from rs components and went to fi them tonight. The one on the passenger side works fine but the drivers side has very little lock when it's in place.

Did you have the same problem?

I am hoping that when the new steering rack extensions arrive the are slightly thinner than the ones I have already so I will not need one on the driver side

David

[skov]

I bought a couple of rack clamps from rs components and went to fi them tonight. The one on the passenger side works fine but the drivers side has very little lock when it's in place.

Did you have the same problem?


Oh, bo11ocks! :mad:

Yep, I've got the same problem too. Back to the drawing board... :rolleyes:

[Ianr]

How did you solve this? - I was going to buy the RS clamps until I read this. What did you both do?
Ian

[skov]

I kept the passenger side clamp, and layed down a couple of beads of weld on the drivers side.

[Ianr]

Thanks Skov

[Stot]

I made my own version of these (http://www.haynes.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=94121&postcount=319) but I put a step on the inside so that they would cover over the threaded bit the knuckle sits on.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8RhnS6M_jRk/UmPadA3_jkI/AAAAAAAAIgk/wlwFe3sdFg0/w800/lockStops3.JPG

If you know someone with a lathe could they put a step on the inside of the ones you have so they sit futher over?

Cheers
Stot

[Davidbolam]

I raised my steering rack as well as using the stops as the rubber bellows on the steering rack were touching the wishbones.

[Ianr]

Impressive solution - thats got me thinking.
Thank you all

[flyerncle]

A thought,the end of the rack screws out easily and stop rings are available from bearing makers to stop shaft movement when supported on bearings.

These would go over the end of the rack and clamp with grub screw.

[Ianr]

I suppose you mean this sort of thing http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/cabu22z-22mm-shaft-collar-unsplit/ . Does anyone know the dimensions of the rack dia and the steering knuckle . Will these do?

[flyerncle]

Exactly that Ian,bit safer and easier than split collar.

[Stot]

I suppose you mean this sort of thing http://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/cabu22z-22mm-shaft-collar-unsplit/ . Does anyone know the dimensions of the rack dia and the steering knuckle . Will these do?

Exactly that Ian,bit safer and easier than split collar.

Only problem is that you wont be able to get one thats the right size on there as the threaded part of the rack is about 5mm larger diameter than the main rack.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-drRI2bUrpek/UmPac8K7oCI/AAAAAAAAIgo/Rty7NyrJSS0/w800/lockStops2.JPG

Cheers
Stot

[Ianr]

I see what you mean Stot - I'm going to have to dismantle and see what mine is like. I did see some on the CAT motorsport website for £4.50 and asked them for a price with delivery - they said that will be £32.50 please.
I'll let you know what I do - perhaps buy a lathe ;-)

[flyerncle]

Looking at the picture I can see what you mean,did not look that closely,you could always grind it off.

[Ianr]

Just measured the rack - 21mm dia with the steering joint being 35mm dia, no thread such as Stot had. Now I can see the joints at the end of the rack itself they do seem to be a bit out of line with the top and bottom suspension inner joints. Perhaps a little long? Does anyone know what the mk 2 Escort rack length is to the shoulder where the joint is? My rack is a Quinton Hazell QHB798 which is an Escort rack I hope but I wouldn't be surprised to find its a Cortina or a Sierra rack, anyone know what QHB798 actually is?

Sorry - would have added an image but at present no idea how to do it - doh!

[CTWV50]

I believe some people have had good results with 23mm high quality stainless steel jubilee hose clips. ;)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261683851501?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=560551892593&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Ianr]

Thanks Chris - I might just use them if I can't get anything better. I am sure I can get some 21 int dia by 35mm outside dia stops made up somewhere.


I would still like to know I have the correct rack QHB798 if anyone knows the part number
Ian

[CTWV50]

Thanks Chris - I might just use them if I can't get anything better. I am sure I can get some 21 int dia by 35mm outside dia stops made up somewhere.


I would still like to know I have the correct rack QHB798 if anyone knows the part number
Ian

This any use to you? Thanks for the kind comment about my pass and build thread. Feel I need to give back a bit more to the forum now I'm through the IVA. Which would simply not be possible without forums like these.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=112254

[Ianr]

Thanks Chris, I agree about these forums, we would all get there but without the mass of information available here it would be a much harder job.
I saw that link a little earlier, it says it probably is the right rack but doesn't confirm it. I tried phoning QH earlier to be told they went into liquidation 5 years ago! As yet I've not found an old parts book.
I have managed to find some measurements a few minutes ago on the web which tend to make me think it is right so I an going to carry on with it. I've also just found a company called Bearingboys which is only about 20 miles from me which I am going to call later and maybe get the stops sorted there.
Thanks again for the link and thanks for posting all the info about your build, I'm afraid I am going to copy a lot of what you did - including the first time IVA pass - hopefully ;)

[Ianr]

just an update - I've ordered two bearing shaft collars from Bearingboys in 20mm and 22mm sizes. I'll try boring out the smaller to 21mm and also grinding down the larger to see which fits best.

[CTWV50]

Thanks Chris, I agree about these forums, we would all get there but without the mass of information available here it would be a much harder job.
I saw that link a little earlier, it says it probably is the right rack but doesn't confirm it. I tried phoning QH earlier to be told they went into liquidation 5 years ago! As yet I've not found an old parts book.
I have managed to find some measurements a few minutes ago on the web which tend to make me think it is right so I an going to carry on with it. I've also just found a company called Bearingboys which is only about 20 miles from me which I am going to call later and maybe get the stops sorted there.
Thanks again for the link and thanks for posting all the info about your build, I'm afraid I am going to copy a lot of what you did - including the first time IVA pass - hopefully ;)

Copy away, I'm flattered. I've read read blog. You've have an interesting car history. You need to start a build thread if you haven't already. Let me know if I can be any help. Cheers

[Ianr]

The stops arrived from BearingBoys a few minutes ago http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/CABU22Z_-_22mm_Shaft_Collar_-40280-p

I've tried them in place and they fit without modification! The steering is reduced from near 45deg to 30deg from straight ahead which sounds like success to me. I'll try and learn how to post pictures this evening.

Thanks Flyerncle for the pointer, works a treat.
Ian

[flyerncle]

Nice to hear and here to help (sometimes);)

[CTWV50]

The stops arrived from BearingBoys a few minutes ago http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/CABU22Z_-_22mm_Shaft_Collar_-40280-p

I've tried them in place and they fit without modification! The steering is reduced from near 45deg to 30deg from straight ahead which sounds like success to me. I'll try and learn how to post pictures this evening.

Thanks Flyerncle for the pointer, works a treat.
Ian

Well done finding a simple neat solution!

[Ianr]

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o566/ianhaynes20/18b57168-deb8-410c-a208-fd812e7d2013_zps9ofmbaqc.jpg

This is a test
and
http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o566/ianhaynes20/a1471354-2031-4348-8855-5222a631b3e6_zpsdo0n6hfq.jpg

2nd Photo shows collar fitted to rack at 500 x 327 ish resolution . First photo was 160 x 120 and seems too small. What is the normal resolution used?

[Davidbolam]

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o566/ianhaynes20/18b57168-deb8-410c-a208-fd812e7d2013_zps9ofmbaqc.jpg

This is a test
and
http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o566/ianhaynes20/a1471354-2031-4348-8855-5222a631b3e6_zpsdo0n6hfq.jpg

2nd Photo shows collar fitted to rack at 500 x 327 ish resolution . First photo was 160 x 120 and seems too small. What is the normal resolution used?

Hi. With my lock stops just before I had my test I realised there wasn't enough lock to go left at a t junction. Give it a try before you put everything back together!

Looks like a really good solution to all the problems we had about a year ago

David