Big leak...
 

In prep for starting up my engine soon as I finally got most of the wiring sorted I filled the engine up with oil today. As I was pouring the oil into the rocker cover, a small amount would leak from where I think was the sump near the engine mount / oil pressure switch. It would then stop leaking as soon as I stopped pouring in oil? I checked the oil pressure switch and it doesn't appear to be leaking from there but from the sump somehow. So I thought ok, I'll come back to that as it doesn't leak while standing and only when I pour oil in. I then started filling up the coolant system after making a gasket for the inlet elbow and sealing it up nice with some holymer blue. Once I got about 5 liters of water in, oil starts pouring out of the front of sump?? As I added more water, more oil came out till the point where there was oil and water coming out :( Any ideas how on earth water is getting from the coolant system down into the sump?? When I had the engine out of the donor, I put a new head gasket on and there's no signs of leaks on there :confused: I'm trying to now get the sump off so I can pour more water in to see where its leaking down from but the sump is now stuck and wont come off. It seems stuck towards the back but I don't remember there being any bolts right at the back of the sump by the flywheel that aren't accessable without the gearbox being off??

Please help :(

Why did you put on a new HG? That would be the most likly culprit for the mixing, certainly if it's POURING.

TT

It was seeping to one side when I bought it. Not tons but enough that I had to topup with water before I drove it home and by then it'd lost a bit. So how do I fix it?

Well drain the sump first, I think there are bolts on the back so get it dropped off and try and determine the location of the ingress.

I take it you have not drilled any holes for the carb conversion?

TT

So I guess I'll need to get the engine & gearbox back out to get at the bolts between the sump and gearbox :(

I've only drilled one hole into the inlet manifold I made which I tapped for the temp gauge sender. This doesn't appear to be leaking. I also took the core plug out at the back of the head at the right side as you look at the engine from the front which is where I mounted the FWD thermostat. Again this doesn't appear to be leaking either.

I know this sounds obvious and could come across as being somewhat cheeky but did you recheck the cylinder head bolts after you did the gasket

Am not taking the preverbial just a thought and I did it once so just checking

Ya i tighted them up with a torque wrench using the sequence listed in haynes manual. I sort of did them all up till they started to bite a bit then did them up in sequence about 1/8-1/4 turn at a time.

Was the head and block clean of old gasket? Was it the correct gasket for the 1.6 Sierra CFI engine.

TT

Ya I worked it all off slowly and the motorfactor said it would be the right gasket (1.8 cfi) and it fit on nice and snug with all the holes in the right place.

Well I got the engine out and the gearbox & clutch back off and the engine back up on the stand with the sump off. There was tons of water in the sump along with oil that had taken on a congealed fatty white look to it. I think I've sussed where the problem is too. I suspect that the internal seal on my bike carb manifold isn't good enough and water is coming thru the head behind cylinder 4 then seeping across the manifold and down into the cylinders to then go down thru the pistons and into the sump :( Can anyone suggest a better way to make sure the internal inlet seal is spot on before I re-assemble the engine? I'd hate to have to put it all back together and in the car to find out the problem isn't fixed :( also is there a better way to get the water out of the block/pistons other than using tons of wd40 to repel all the water out?

Blowlamp to dry it off.

Have you seen the water coming down the bores? the water would have to be pouring past the pistons to be pouring out the sump.

TT

Not yet, I still need to get the inlet manifold off to confirm my suspicions. It's just the water came out the sump faster when the engine was tilted back (front of the car jacked up) which made me think it was pooling at the back by cylinder 4 more and increasing the flow down thru the pistons. I was thinking once I have the inlet off I could test it somehow by pouring more water into the head at the back at the thermostat and see if it tracks it way thru to the inlet manifold and then down the 4th cylinder?

If water is pouring past the pistions then you have a BIG problem. If the engine was running fine before then I doubt you have such an issue unless the engine has stood for years.

There's realy only 2 routs for water to enter the sump.

1) From the head gasket between a water and oilway.
2) From a failure of a cast ( head or block damage )

Have you taken the cam cover off yet? it's possible water is entering this area and going down the filling hole.

TT

Well the engine stood for about 9 months without fluids after I bought it until now. Is the cam cover the same as the rocker cover? I've taken that off to have a look and there's no sign of any water in there.

The piston have to compress air/fuel mix to hundreds of psi for the engine to run correctly if unpressurized water is getting past the piston ring then the engine is scrap. More than likely like TT is thinking is that the head gasket has not sealed correctly. Did you check the head was not warpped before fitting a new gasket?

Now you have the engine cranking do a compression test could give some idea to whats going on

Must be a pretty big problem to get the problems you describe

Going back a step did you drill/tap the hole in the manifold while it was on the head? When engine was stood it would not have had antifreeze in as you were topping it up to get home, so is there any chance of frost damage from residual water in the block/head.

It didn't look warped when I changed the gasket but is there some way to check other than with your eye?

no it was on the bench...

again i dont think so as it was drained of fluids and the engine taken out and sat inside on the garage floor over the winter.

Engineers steel ruler is the way to check for head warping, however it would still have to be quite bad for POURING water. The water is under atmospheric pressure and gravity, it is not being pushed past any obstical.

You may have some luck if you take the cam cover off and Identify the oil gallery that returns from the head to the block (the one used during filling) Stick a torch over it ( or use a long swab ) and see if you can see water flowing or water residue.

I think, that unless you can find something obvious, the head will have to come off to Identify the route the leak. is taking. and then reversing the direction to see the source.

TT

Well I plan to get the inlet manifold off tonight and have a look there for signs of water and then like you've said the head will have to come off for a look to see what the score is. I'll be gutted if I have scrap the engine :(

What if engine is it again

It's a 1.8 CVH CFi (early fuel injection not carb'd) and I've taken the injection elements off and put bike carbs on it.

A mate of mind at work has a 1.8 mondeo he is about to scrap its got a zetec and going cheap

Ya I've started looking into that, theres a few zetecs going on ebay cheap too. If I can't salvage my cvh then I'll probly have to put a zetec in as getting ahold of another cvh would be near impossible. If I put a used zetec in though i'll end up with a Q plate though? :(

Would it help if you have the logbook for the engine cause you could take the whole car for 200 quid

Not sure to be honest, what year of mondeo was it as I'd prefer a pre 95 engine so I don't have to run a cat. Can anyone confirm whether if you had the logbook from both donor's if that would be enough to not get a Q plate?

I think it has to be a single donor with proof to get an age related plate.

All new parts, or all new with one major reconditioned as new component is current plate.

Anything else will get you a Q plate.

bummer, I guess if I got a brand new zetec then I could still get an age related based on the running gear and gearbox but not sure if that's worth it really as the only place I've seen selling them new is kit spares or ebay and they're £700-800 :(

Emissions would be based on engine age, not the donor parts. If you went for a brand new engine you would have to meet current emission levels, ie cat and fuel injection.

Ya I figured i'd have to run a cat on anything post 95 whether new or not but are you also saying you couldn't run bike carbs on a new zetec with a cat and pass emmisions?

You can run bike carbs, so long as you can keep all the emissions in check and provide a good burn through the revrange to avoid damage to the cat...

However, if you look at some of the production cars running carbs with CATS... You will run a mile and be kissing the feet of our lord EFI and singing the praises of closed loop management.

TT

Big yes to that!!

There is an alternative to injection though.

http://www.horrorphile.net/images/hangmans-noose.jpg

Bob:)

Lol I thought carbs where supposed to be better power/sound and injection just spread the power out across the rev range and gave you better fuel economy?

Anyhow got it apart and here's what I found...

Bit of water that had pooled and gone a bit rusty inside the cylinder 4 intake on the bike carb manifold...


I then got the whole manifold off and got a bit of oil leaking out head from where the channel comes down from the rocker area but no water (I'm guessing this is normal?). I also stuck my finger down the intake ports and only cyclinder 4 was wet. The water outlet behind port 4 at the back of the head was also strangely dry disproving my theory about water leaking out of here and down the intake 4??



The oil does seem to have spread/leaked across the bike carb manifold gasket although there was no signs of leakage out of the manifold

I then got the head off (note I didn't try to set it to TDC 1st as I wanted to see if there was water pooling at pot 4 which would be up at TDC, I'll reset later IF the engine isn't wrecked). Low and behold it was quite wet around cylinder 4 and there was water pooled in it :(


I had a good look at the gasket and this section here looks like the culprit although I can't understand how it could have rotted/ripped away like this and leaked out across the block surface and into cylinder 4 and then down into oilway into the sump?


I hopefully haven't wasted my time here but I had a go at cleaning up cylinder 4 with some wd40 and it came out pretty good I thought


please tell me its salvageable....

I still don't think it has leaked past cylinder 4, looks more like the water has passed from the water to the oil gallery.

Anyway. Pour in 1/2 a pint of water to cylinder 4 and see if it runs out. after that, warm it up to dry it.

TT

I agree, I don't think it has leaked past pot 4, just into it and by the looks of it almost gone up the intake to make the pool you could see in my 1st picture which makes sense as I had the front of the car jacked up and the seal clearly wasn't tight enough. So is it just a case of putting a new head gasket on it should be ok or will there have been permanent damage from the water getting into pot 4?

I think looking at that locating dowel in the head <which should be in the block x2) is the problem. It looks to me like you have munched the head down on the dowels and not got the head seated on the block before tightening.That dowel should have been half in the head and half in the block, to me it looks like due to misallignment the head gasket has never seated.

Bob

Is that the correct gasket? some of the holes dont line up and are of different shape on one of the pics

I'm not sure to be honest, it's what my local motor factor sold me by looking up the donor's reg. I'm sure he said it was for a 1.8i cvh which I took to be 1.8 CFi and it came as a set with inlet & exhaust manifold which seemed to line up ok.

To be honest I'm not too worried about the Q plate. It's more using a pre 95 engine to go thru IVA to set my emission requirements quite high so that I can swap to a modern zetec afterwards without having to run a cat etc to meet lower emission requirements.