Using a FWD Engine?

[acra]

Hi guys, I'm in the very (very) early stages of planning a build - I'm considering getting on a welding course as I'm still in an apprenticeship right now so funds won't allow for a build for at least two years :P

I've somehow got it into my head that I'd like a specific engine, but I've no idea if it's even possible!

I'm after light weight and economy - I've never driven RWD before, and don't plan on huge amounts of power, all I'm after is a fun drive and a good project!

I'm currently thinking of using the 1KR-FE engine, seen in Citroen C1, Peugeot 107, Toyota Aygo etc. It's a Toyota engine, and uses a Toyota box; but it's FWD.
Is it possible to use such an engine? I'm not sure what extra work it'd need to transfer the power to the rear, but I'd be game for it if it's doable.

Basic specs of the engine are good for me, 3 cylinder, 12 valve, 68hp and one of the lightest production model engines (69kg) - it's just under the litre, and I've driven the C1 with one in and the power would be more than adequate for me on a lighter car!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_KR_engine

Just looking for advice:
- Will the engine fit? (not sure if it's too deep/tall)
- What is needed to convert to RWD (if possible)?
- Anything else anyone could throw in!

Any help is much appreciated!!

[twinturbo]

You will need to find a way of adapting a RWD gearobx. and finding one that when combined with the final drive will provide suitable ratios.

The clutch will probably present a few issues too.

And there's a good chance that the engine management and security systems will be a bit of a pain to sort.

TT

[big_wasa]

Have you thought about the 1.3 Ka engine. Its small and being simlar to a xflow will mount up to a t9.
The 1.25 will not though with out a new bell housing.

Again some electrical work involved but it could be done.

[acra]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies!
twinturbo, you've pretty much confirmed my worries - trying to match the engine I want up to RWD is gonna be a pain in the proverbial.

big_wasa, I'd not considered the Ka tbh, and I'm not sure why. It looks a reasonable engine, probably a whole lot easier too - do you reckon I'd need to keep the clutch assembly too?
Electrical work isn't a concern to me, I'd look at it as a challenge - in my field I'm gonna need to work out how the fairies do their magic, so a challenge like that won't be too bad

Has anyone used a Ka engine, or similar before?

I'm thinking of doing the rest of the build to the Haynes plans, using Sierra components (and this idea of using a low-power lightweight unit, kinda like original 7's).

[twinturbo]

Originally Posted by acra

Electrical work isn't a concern to me

Many modern cars have security systems that take note of components on the engine & the rest of the car ( throttle motors, air meters, etc ) if the component numbers don't match the ECU or a missing ( where my ABS module gone ? ) then the management will not work. Often the wiring needed to even fool the systems can get out of hand ( where my drivers door lock gone? ).

expensive aftremarket management can solve this sometimes.

TT

[twinturbo]

Eeeeurg... The Endura E.

Ford had to find something to shoe horn in to the KA's bay and satisfy pedestrian front impact protection. They had nothing to fit the bill in the modern line up of engines, so hauld the old x-flow out of the skip.

I don't want to say it. Please somone shoot me afterwards. But.

If you want a small 4pot, that has been used in the kitcar market for many many years, offers upgrade paths and has a bi-polar reliability disorder. Then the Rover K-Series is a reasonable bet.

1.0 8v throught to blown 2.0 16v gives a breadth of options. Fairly simple Management of EFI.

TT

[acra]

Originally Posted by twinturbo

Eeeeurg... The Endura E.

Ford had to find something to shoe horn in to the KA's bay and satisfy pedestrian front impact protection. They had nothing to fit the bill in the modern line up of engines, so hauld the old x-flow out of the skip.

I don't want to say it. Please somone shoot me afterwards. But.

If you want a small 4pot, that has been used in the kitcar market for many many years, offers upgrade paths and has a bi-polar reliability disorder. Then the Rover K-Series is a reasonable bet.

1.0 8v throught to blown 2.0 16v gives a breadth of options. Fairly simple Management of EFI.

TT

Hang on, you're criticising the Ka engine, saying it's old - then suggest the equally (if not older) K series?

I've had a quick look about, and it's not really as light or economic as I was looking for, but it may be an alternative to the nightmare of converting the 1KR I wanted initially.

Only thing that concerns me is the many reports of head gasket issues...

Either way, I'd want something that can fit into the original design car, without too much chassis modification.
Ideally I want a light engine, preferably 1.6 or below, but still pushing 60hp minimum. I know that won't be fast, but the C1 I had weighed more than the kitcar would, and still got to 60 in 11 seconds - so potentially without modification to the engine I'd be looking at around 8 seconds at a guess.

[twinturbo]

The KA's Endura E is basicaly based on an engine that started life in the late 1950's using tried and trusted principles.

The K-Series dates from the late 80 and combined many revolutionay techniques.


Head gasket issues are a problem on K's many garages wont touch them. It's a comon problem on many wet liner engines. If the engien has been well maintained and not overheated then the should last ok.


As for fitting in the original design, the engine bay will fit fairly large engines. Certainly most 4-pot ones should be no problem.

You could look at the 1.6 MX5 as this is already a tried and tested route.

TT

[transverse]

Hi Acra,
as you are at the start planning your build, you could be a bit more adventurous!.

Take ~400 mm of length out the front engine bay, and mount the entire C1 transaxle in one piece in a 400mm triangulated extension behind the seats, leaving the Roadsters wheelbase as it was.

You might even get away with using the C1 suspension struts and possible the C1 lower wishbones/subframe!

Leave everything else as it is apart from the rear diff / rear wishbone mounts.
The trans tunnel could be narrowed but unless you need the space, leave as it is!


Its a route we will all have to think about anyway as the RWD get older/rustier and rarer!

Perhaps a Fiesta/Clio/Corsa etc donored Roadster with modern engines form 1.2 to 2.0 (even diesel if it floats your boat!)
Is there a book in it!

[acra]

Originally Posted by transverse

Hi Acra,
as you are at the start planning your build, you could be a bit more adventurous!.

Take ~400 mm of length out the front engine bay, and mount the entire C1 transaxle in one piece in a 400mm triangulated extension behind the seats, leaving the Roadsters wheelbase as it was.

You might even get away with using the C1 suspension struts and possible the C1 lower wishbones/subframe!

Leave everything else as it is apart from the rear diff / rear wishbone mounts.
The trans tunnel could be narrowed but unless you need the space, leave as it is!


Its a route we will all have to think about anyway as the RWD get older/rustier and rarer!

Perhaps a Fiesta/Clio/Corsa etc donored Roadster with modern engines form 1.2 to 2.0 (even diesel if it floats your boat!)
Is there a book in it!

I'm loving the community here already - so many ideas and helpful hints!

Just clarifying - you mean rear-mounting the engine? That's an interesting concept, I'm following a Rear-Rear project online at the moment, but they're redesigning the whole shape too.

I guess, if there's space in the back (and it doesn't make it too rear end heavy) then it's doable, leaving space up front for fuel tank, battery, radiator, maybe even steal the power steering too since that's electrical...

The C1 ECU and electronics is fairly basic in the early models (2006-08) and I've worked on one when I had it - though mine was a model with aircon.
Only thing I'd definitely change if keeping the gearbox is the clutch - far too weak, needs the Toyota Yaris clutch if it's gonna last...