St170 fuel injection on a budget project.

[robo]

Originally Posted by baz-r

there are some squirted 2l zetecs pushing over 190bhp on all std internals now

Dynos on drugs 200hp zetecs cost between 3k and 5k if they are built properly, someone best phone up the tuning boys and tell them about mega sqiff . Keep going at it Wasa its the way to go. Shame these cars arn`t like the old range rover with a complete stand alone ecu and wiring system. All it did was pick up a couple of wires on its way past the ignition switch.

Bob

[big_wasa]

I allready do the Mondeo zetec ecu's silver and black top.
The mondeo engine loom is almost self contained. If you could fit it in the engine bay there would only be one 42 pin plug to wire up and only around half the plug is used. These are good for around 150bhp

The st170 gets more advanced and more complicated. The extra tunning needs extra controle.

On top of the blacktop stuff...
you have.

barametric sensor
vairable inlet
vairable valve timming
returnless fuel pump controler and pressure sensors.
pre and post o2 sensors.

The ecu also hooks into all sorts inclueding the clock

If I can do this then I can do the RS loom.

[baz-r]

carbs just cant give you spot on fueling everywhere and std ecus are set by car makers and have to create somthing thats is designed to make an engine econimcal,quiet,smooth,enviromental and long lasting you can do some basic ajustment if you can get in, but are hardware limited.

any programable ecu is the door to running what ever you want or need plus everythin is ajustable to what you want

at college we had a std n/a toyota twincam on a bench dyno with 4 gas ( widebands where very rare at the time) and loads of other monitor equipment with two ecu setups one std toyota ecu and hardware and the other was a early programable unit that was swaped over from the std toyota one all other hardware was unchanged
the toyota ecu was programed by toyota and would retard ign in areas to reduce noise and run lean in other areas for enviromental regs etc
when the programable unit was used set to optimum fueling and timing the torque plot was way higher at all rpms and had no holow points just one big nice arc.
we used this bench dyno for all sorts of sudies on engine manigment and automotive eletronics
i did not cover actual live dyno mapping just the effects of modern engine magement, live mapping was done by the motorsport enginering students but we did share lots of the same classes together in my 3rd year
corse if anyone here actualy has anymore experince here than me im all ears
also done some work with diesel engines on a realy old water brake dyno if anyone here knows them

[baz-r]

Originally Posted by big_wasa

I allready do the Mondeo zetec ecu's silver and black top.
The mondeo engine loom is almost self contained. If you could fit it in the engine bay there would only be one 42 pin plug to wire up and only around half the plug is used. These are good for around 150bhp

The st170 gets more advanced and more complicated. The extra tunning needs extra controle.

On top of the blacktop stuff...
you have.

barametric sensor
vairable inlet
vairable valve timming
returnless fuel pump controler and pressure sensors.
pre and post o2 sensors.

The ecu also hooks into all sorts inclueding the clock

If I can do this then I can do the RS loom.

i never did get to the bottom of how the st170 fuel supply system ran, when i was looking for the what fuel pressure it ran at i got back it was veriable controled buy the ecu and there is an odd diaphram thingy in the fuel rail that goes off to somewhere via a vac tube ?

now if anyone has sorted a st170 motor with a programable ecu to run verible cam timing and snip out the cat and ditch all the rubish that would be intersting

[robo]

Originally Posted by baz-r

carbs just cant give you spot on fueling everywhere and std ecus are set by car makers and have to create somthing thats is designed to make an engine econimcal,quiet,smooth,enviromental and long lasting you can do some basic ajustment if you can get in, but are hardware limited.

any programable ecu is the door to running what ever you want or need plus everythin is ajustable to what you want

at college we had a std n/a toyota twincam on a bench dyno with 4 gas ( widebands where very rare at the time) and loads of other monitor equipment with two ecu setups one std toyota ecu and hardware and the other was a early programable unit that was swaped over from the std toyota one all other hardware was unchanged
the toyota ecu was programed by toyota and would retard ign in areas to reduce noise and run lean in other areas for enviromental regs etc
when the programable unit was used set to optimum fueling and timing the torque plot was way higher at all rpms and had no holow points just one big nice arc.
we used this bench dyno for all sorts of sudies on engine manigment and automotive eletronics
i did not cover actual live dyno mapping just the effects of modern engine magement, live mapping was done by the motorsport enginering students but we did share lots of the same classes together in my 3rd year
corse if anyone here actualy has anymore experince here than me im all ears
also done some work with diesel engines on a realy old water brake dyno if anyone here knows them

I have wasted so much time going backwards and forwards to rolling roads that I bought an old Stuska dyno so I can do my own mapping, I also grabbed a four gas analyser. Its only a water brake with analog guages but it should do all I want. she is a beast rated at 800hp.I just need to plumb it in now and have a play





Bob

[baz-r]

wow that looks posher than the one i used we had to hang weights off the arm on side of it and ajust the vane angle to get it to ballance then had to work it all out on paper sadly that was the whole idea of the exersise more about number crunching. fun fun fun
god knows where thay dug it up from it was very old

work sent me to our rail engine rebilders as a triaining exesise a few years back i got a look around all thair dynos as i showed some interst, thay had some real monsters there and had some cat 1200bhp lifeboat engines running full chat on one and some massive mtu units on the other was a real eye opener made everything else look tiny

i only got to play on the dyno with engine we used and i help rebuild also dyno'ed a hyd gearbox for efficency that was basicly 2 torque meaters either side

[robo]

I was hopeing someone here was going to tell me how to drive the thing.I have never seen or used one of the water braked jobbies before

Bob

[snapper]

Cosworth head on a Pinto is a BIG job
Pistons no cheap way out
Cam belt crank pully, the cossy crank is longer and the pully smaller will need to machine to fit a Pinto crank
I would question cost saving over an injected Zetec
All interesting this thread, the Ford ECU whatever version is always difficult to break into, I have a friend who can using Ford software to get very deep into it but every instalation would need him at the rolling road.
Megasquirt has been proven but I find it a leap to far for me, price though is competitive and we have picked them up under £200
There will always be a limit on how much you an squeeze out of a standard engine, the ST170 never made 170bhp.
I watch with interest

[alga]

Originally Posted by big_wasa

I allready do the Mondeo zetec ecu's silver and black top.
The mondeo engine loom is almost self contained.

I'll second that! About 4 positives, 2 negatives and it starts up. But its layout is such that you'd have to mount the ECU under the nose cone, not the best of places.

[baz-r]

Originally Posted by robo

I was hopeing someone here was going to tell me how to drive the thing.I have never seen or used one of the water braked jobbies before

Bob

from what i can remember on the one i used is its like a torque converter with a verible angle vane in it you can ajust, the output side can rotate a small amount and has a arm off the side of the body that either goes to some form a force mesument device, ours was an arm that ballanced weights so distence over force = torque and if you know rpm's then you can get bhp
you need to factor the loss of your waterbrake as some energy is converted to heat etc. also are well know for been inconsistent so be warned we took 6 or so runs to get an avrage or "mean" reading took all day to do
then another full day number crunching

here is a little run down on how we used it on a big diesel engine on wot to get max fueling on the govener

we would add weights to end of arm then ajust vain angle to ajust brakes load and lift the weight the more weight it could lift before pulling rpms down the more torque you had , keep repeating adding vain angle and weight taking readings as we go untill we pull the rpms all the way down.
then number crunch losses and all the other stuff to get accurate torque for each load point that then create dots on a graph
then a good old bit of dot to dot to get a torque curve then do same again to get a bhp curve
all was a bit back to front as you had to find what rpms you had for each torque 100nm then 110nm and so on not what torque was at set rpms
i think later waterbrakes had hyd pressure cells
i think everything is eletric now and has been for some time waterbrakes where very old hat 17years ago as i can remember